Talk:Eastern Catholic Churches

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[edit] Discussion

[edit] "Byzantine Rite Catholic" in Andy Warhol

Andy Warhol says "Warhol was a practicing Byzantine Rite Catholic ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol#Religious_beliefs

I'd like to link Byzantine Rite Catholic, but I'm not sure where it should direct. Anybody? Thanks. (Crossposted to Talk:Byzantine Rite ) -- Writtenonsand 15:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I presume he belonged to the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh, part of the Ruthenian Catholic Church. Lima 15:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Unlikely, since his parish is said to be St. Vincent's and there is no St. Vincent's in that eparchy in New York City. This says he went to St. Vincent Ferrer, a Latin rite parish on Lexington Avenue. It seems this was simply his neighborhood parish, and he didn't go out of his way to find one of his own rite. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

However, frequenting a Latin church or receiving the sacraments in the rite of the Latin Church would not make him a Latin Catholic, if he was not one, no matter how long he kept it up (cf. canon 112 §2 of the Code of Canon Law - I presume there is a corresponding canon of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches). But I have absolutely no way of knowing whether what is reported of him (that he was a Byzantine-Rite Catholic) is true or not. Perhaps someone else has. Lima 04:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Warhol was in fact a Lemko/Rusyn/Ruthenian by ethnicity (his original name was "Warhola") and grew up in that rite, which has been variously styled Ruthenian, Carpatho-Rusyn and Byzantine over the years (most congregations under the jurisdiction now simply call themselves, for instance, "St. Michael's Byzantine Catholic Church," though around the block there may be an "Assumption Ukrainian Catholic Church," also by ritual "byzantine," but by jusrisdiction under Philadelphia rather than Pitssburgh). Warhol is buried in a Ruthenian cemetery with an Eastern style cross on the stone. However, he did attend St. Vincent Ferrer (I actually saw him there, sometimes in the middle of the day when the church was otherwise empty, all alone in the in prayer). As mentioned above, his technical rite would have remained Byzantine/Ruthenian, had he chosen to become a priest for instance or had children to be baptized. However, Catholic is Catholic and any Catholic can actually worship in any parish. The technicality of ritual jurisdiction would not have been an issue in his daily worship life.HarvardOxon 04:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In this case, it would probably be best to use the pipe trick, linking to [[Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh|Byzantine Catholic]]. The redirect from Byzantine Catholic should point here, as I don't believe we have an article on just the Eastern Churches of the Byzantine tradition. Gentgeen 08:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

(To HarvardOxon) You need not provide to the present company a précis of Warhol's ethnicity. To those of Lemko descent such as myself, it's well-known.

Regardless of his "technical rite" (which I cannot agree is not an issue in one's prayer life) he chose to worship in a Latin rite parish. It therefore seems somewhat misleading to say he was a "practicing Byzantine Catholic" and leave it at that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry that I must confess that, though I am of the present company, I knew nothing about Andy Warhol's ethnicity. At any rate, it appears to be undoubted that he was a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic. It is not so certain that someone who is canonically a Latin Catholic cannot find Byzantine forms of worship more conducive to prayer - or vice versa. But Csernica is certainly right in saying that calling Warhol "a practicing Byzantine Catholic" is easily misinterpreted. How about "a Byzantine Catholic and a person who practiced his faith" or something like that? Lima 09:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

As the OP on this one, I too found this interesting and informative, and (A) I think some of this could be added to Andy Warhol, and (B) I'd still like to see some kind of decision on the correct link for Byzantine Rite Catholic. Thanks to all! -- Writtenonsand 17:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there are several solutions. But I think that, in view of the observations above, you should first edit the text so that it no longer says "a practicing Byzantine Rite Catholic". Then you can link "Byzantine Rite Catholic" or "Byzantine Catholic" with Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh or Ruthenian Catholic Church, whichever you prefer. Or you can add an explanatory footnote/reference and put as many links into that as you wish. Others may give you better advice than I can. Lima 17:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

How about saying that he was raised a Byzantine Rite (Ruthenian) Catholic, and that he remained a practicing Catholic throughout his life? john k 18:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Look I attended many countries and places in the mid east. I have never seen any practicing Eastern Catholic churches. Also you guys used the term in communication with the Pope of Rome far too many times. The Pope of Rome is not a recognised Church see anymore, his regime is called a Papacy and his order are the papists. The term Kotholikon as is typically in the East describes their cathedrals that practice Byzantine or Hellenic Liturgy not Latin.

I'm glad to see the crazy people have joined us. john k 18:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone may want to remind User:Ephestion that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches recognize one another. And I'm more than happy to recommend any number of Eastern Catholic churches to visit while in the Middle East -- or most any other place. Majoreditor 19:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Since your article has no proof or evidence to the existance of an Eastern Catholic church. I have reverted and will continue to do so. The moment the Katholik church split it formed the Orthodox and Papal Church. There never was an Eastern Catholic church nor do they exist. Yes even Orthodoxy is in communion with the Papacy, the monks of Athos are and always will be in protest for the communion because the Pope of Rome is not the authentic and legitimate appointed bishop of that see. The Bishop of Constantinople must send Three Bishops with acknowledgment from teh other sees before nominating the new Bishop. The process has not been conducted for centuaries leaving the see of Rome unoccupied till today. Do not confuse Catholic faith with Papal faith.

The following post was brought to you by Trolls "R" Us. But seriously -- the vast majority of the Orthodox communion disagrees with your fringe view. 'Nuf said, we don't need to feed this one any more. Majoreditor 02:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)