Talk:Elijah

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[edit] The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning were removed by User:Robert Merkel, with which I agree pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:52, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Elisha

The Elisha mentions in the "In The Bible" seem awkward. It's mentioned twice that he was the successor to Elijah. Elijah leaving his mantle to Elisha is also mentioned twice. Sheik Rattle Enroll 03:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Troubler of Israel

This linked to Anti-Israel which was redirected to Anti-Zionism. I don't think that Ahab would have called Elijah anti-zionist so I removed the link. Ted BJ 06:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

If they were both alive today its that sort of crude totalitarian lingo what King Ahab would use. LamontCranston 19:12, 6 February (UTC)

[edit] Other sources?

Are there other sources about Elijah besides the Torah? When is he thought to have lived? – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 22:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Elijah is mentioned in the Quran 6.85, 37.123,130 as [Elias] or Ilyas, also 19.56, 21.85 as [Idris].

[edit] Is Elijah and John the Baptist the same person?

According to Paramahansa Yogananda, Jesus Christ's last incarnation was Elisha and John the Baptist was Elijah. In the Autobiography of a Yogi, Yogananda also made a claim that Jesus' spiritual teacher was John the Baptist. This is also mentioned in the Bible in a very subtle manner. Thus this makes John the Baptist the guru of Jesus. I am not sure how many Christians are aware of this piece of information but I am sure this revelation is going to stir up some debate. As I personally do not belong to any religious group, my stand is neutral in this respect. But I would like to see some comments about this from a Christian point of view. Self-Realization members and disciples of Yogananda have long embraced this view but I do not see this being mentioned in the other Christian sects. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 15:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

• as a general rule most Christians don't believe in reincarnation so I wouldn't suggest merging Elijah with John the Baptist. Way too controversial. - Cancellorian 16:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Looking soley at Biblical references, I don't think it is controversial at all - Stevetremblay

It would from a Western perspective that John the Baptist could be a sort of mentor to Jesus, however John the Baptist refers to Jesus as "the one who'll come after me, whose shoes I'm not even worthy to tie"(Matthew 3:11). This is important, because many self-appointed messiahs existed at that time in Israel, all claiming to have the power to overthrow Roman rule and destroy Herod, but John is distinguished by being one who not only claims he isn't the messiah, but that the one who'll succeed and supercede him will be. Moreover, if John was Jesus' guru, then John wouldn't have responded to Jesus at the Jordan baptism by saying, "It should be you baptising me instead" (Matthew 3:14). It is more likely the John the Baptist was a member of the sect of the Essenes, who lived in a secret wilderness commune, and who embodied Christian values in pre-Christ times and were a major influence in the non-Pauline Christian communities after Christ's resurrection and ascension. The fact that Jesus went into the wilderness may also be a reference to the proposition that Jesus was familiar with the wilderness, and possibly could've spent some time with the Essenes prior to his recorded ministry, where he may have encountered John the Baptist. However, the idea that John may have been a teacher of him is unlikely since, as a boy, Jesus was found by his mother Mary discussing with temple teachers in Jerusalem who remarked how astonished they were at his questions and understanding of the scriptures he had.(Luke 2:47) - qlj

[edit] merge page?

should perhaps this entry be merged with the Elias entry as they are one in the same?

• I'd support it, unlike John the Baptist they are unquestionably the same invidual. - Cancellorian 16:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I attempted to correct POV in the tagged section. I used more neutral wording in the first paragraph, and removed the second paragraph, of which I couldn't really make head nor tails. I also removed weasel words in the last paragraph. Unless someone objects, I'll remove the POV tag tomorrow. Carl.bunderson 17:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Done and done. Carl.bunderson 16:47, 12 July 2006

(UTC)

[edit] Juniper

I note that the article says it was a juniper he sat under, whilst other English translations use the words furze and broom. Does anyone know the original Hebrew word? Andycjp 13/8/2006

רתם: Rethem - Apparently commentators believe it's the spartium junceum, and is known as both the Juniper and the Spanish Broom. I think both names are valid. Zahakiel 06:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV in question

Is it possible that the conclusion saying Elijah did not in fact ascend to heaven be considered an argueable POV. There are countless other theories on the subject, and I feel that the proof of "harmony" is still left slightly wanting. Interpretation of the context of that day is not being taken into account from THIS PERSON'S perspective. If anyone did research on the subject an alternate conclusion is just as easily presentable. ciyean 02:17, 06/12/2006

Agreed. I believe the mainstream thought in Christianity is that Elijah did ascend into Heaven, although he did so bodily, so not "invisibly into the spirit realm." This is also the reason why Elisha did not mourn, because his master had not died. It is true that some groups believe the prophet was simply located, so I think the best way to deal with this from a NPOV is to expand the section to include the different theories about his ascension. I can find sources for that if no one else gets to it in a little while. Zahakiel 16:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Elijah was also a man of his word. When God asked him to do something that could cause him his life he did it anyway.

I am new to this. I just made a few minor suggestions concerning readability and grammar. I thought my suggestions would go to a gatekeeper who would make revisions to the actual text. Imagine my supprise to see my changes put immediately into effect! Fortunately, they were small changes--a word deleted, a sentence moved. I have more suggestions, but they are larger and more significant. How do I submit these for COMMENT AND CONSIDERATION before anything drastic is done? ThomasHartman 03:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)ThomasHartman

[edit] Changes

Thank you for you help. I have read the guidelines--honestly, not all of them--about being bold. Well here goes!

I am a Reading/English teacher. What I tried to do was: 1. Use the outline provided. 2. Correct the grammar. 3. Work toward a more readable style. 4. Flesh out the story of Elijah. Some of the content was very confusing otherwise. I now have more questions: 1. How does the reference to Yahweh work? Do I continue to use the Hebrew spelliing? Wouldn't some people even prefer "G_d"? 2. While I think a summary of Elijah's career is important, I don't know if this is too much for an encyclopedia entry? 3. I have tried to keep the tone neutral, HOWEVER, we are talking about a Bible story. Do we capitalize God when referring to the Judeao-Christian-Islamic conception? Thank You. ThomasHartman 00:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. I usually refer to Yahweh by name, as Elijah did (I think). The English equivalent of YHWH is LORD, so you can use that, too. The term "G_d" is not in general use. Add material. If it gets to long, spin off a page as a subsection. I think capitalizing God is fine, like capitalizing the Father or the Christ. I try to use the terms that the people in question used. Such as "Yahweh" for Elijah. Jonathan Tweet 05:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem

I was doing a little research on Elijah when I ran across Easton's Bible Dictionary. The article as I found it had a good deal of archaic language. This language, and much of the content, came from Easton's. Because of this I now have my doubts about other sections of this article. I now realize that this is going to take more time than I thought to clean up. If anyone has useful references--please share.

My thought was to continue with a summary of Elijah's career, and then Jewish and Christian view's of Elijah's importance.

Thanks. ThomasHartman

Last time I read it, this page was terrible. I wouldn't be opposed to a do-over. Jonathan Tweet 20:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes

I am trying to follow the manual of style concerning footnotes. My notation appears in the text but the citation does not appear at the end of the text. Do I need to do this manually also? ThomasHartman 00:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. The footnotes section was probably dropped inadvertantly. I understand that some software programs do that (that's as specific as I can be, I don't know much about it.) In any event, I just created or restored that section and footnotes are now visible. It's something worth knowing how to do and it's easy, so please take a look at that section in edit mode. There's another way of doing it as well, which I'm not familiar with. Best, Noroton 16:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing in the "Christian controversy over Elijah's assumption into heaven" section

Although it's good to know what points in the Bible are referred to in the discussion of this topic, to only cite them is totally inadequate to back up the statements made in that section. If there are no sources to be pointed to, then that section amounts to original research (which I doubt is actually the case, but I don't know). I've put ^{[citation needed]} tags on the statements. Noroton 16:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been working on this section and have found a number of these "unknown" sources. I am reluctant to delete anyone's work. There have been several sections I have axed, or redone, for lack of sources, plagiarism, or just a lack of coherence. Presently, I have this one in my sights. If no one objects, I would like to just delete it. ThomasHartman 22:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. I know of a few I can find sources for. Let's not cut the whole thing, just cite it. Hartman, could you elaborate a bit on some of your points? I thought I understood, but now I'm not so sure. Wrad 23:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I cited the sources. I still don't feel that it really expresses all points of view well. This is clearly a controversial subject with many facets. I also restored your changes to the New Testament section. Wrad 00:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revision ideas

So, this article used to be pretty sad, but has improved by leaps and bounds recently, and we want it to keep going that way. I was thinking we could take a look at good articles on other biblical characters and follow a similar format. An example would be the article on David. As it is now, compared to David, this article is very fragmentary. Not all aspects of the topic are accurately covered. We need more on the Islamic view, as well as other views within Christianity. Also, although the language of the article is approaching encyclopedic quality, it can still get better. I'm probably stating the obvious, but I just wanted to put these ideas out here even if just as an outline to talk about. Wrad 07:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Right. Believe it or not, the David article is what I was aiming for. I was concerned with the length this was running to--now, not so much. ThomasHartman 00:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice coincidence. Thanks for your help. Wrad 00:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)