Talk:Famous Iranian Arabs

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Most of those on the list are well-known Arabs. Are you denying the fact that Shamkhani is an Arab? The List_of_famous_Persian_women has few citations. Are you going to demand citations for all these?

I did not (!!!) add the tag to Shamkhani, as it is written in his page that he is arab.

Just some comments. Abu Nuwas the poet was not an Iranian Arab. His father was Yemenese and his mother was Persian. Also Iman Mobali is an Iranian Arab. But I do not see why this wikipedia entery is needed? Iranian arabs are Iranians and so the famous ones should just be under famous Iranians and then if there is entery created for them, we can mention their background if needed. --Ali doostzadeh 19:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This entry is as needed as List of famous Persian women. Persian women are also Iranians.--الأهواز 22:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The thing is in the West, Persian and Iranian are equivalent and it does not denote ethnicity like Farsi-speakers. But if you are sensitive with this issue, I think the entery Persian women can be changed to Iranian women and we can get rid of this current entery. I hope your purpose is not to create division. Also I think a good portion of your enteries are not Iranian Arabs. For example Mohammad Moosavi. --Ali doostzadeh 05:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ali: I created this entry based on a list Zereshk put in the Anti-Arabism in order to prove that Arabs have social mobility in Iran (see: [1]). However, I thought that instead of filling the article with the list of Iranian Arabs he drew up, it would be better to have a link to a separate article listing the names. I have added only three names to the list, whose biography articles specifically state that they are of Arab origin and were born in Iran or Persia. I agree that there are some names in the list that don't maked sense and are simply based on birthplace rather than ethnicity, but I think it better that the Iranian Wikipedians determine this as they choose.--الأهواز 09:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I do not think such an entery is necessary. We can mention them under famous Iranians and then state if they are from the ethnic Arabs of Khuzestan. No doubt Iranian Arabs are an important part of Iran as well and I think we should strive for better understanding instead of following trends that are divisive. --Ali doostzadeh 22:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine, but please remember the reason why this article was created and that if this is merged with a list of famous Iranians then there is the original issue relating to the Anti-Arabism article, in which one editor wished to counter reports showing poverty and discrimination against Arabs with a list of Iranian Arabs who have been successful in arts, sports and politics. So, if you are recommending the merging of this article with another, it would be good to deal with the original issue - without resorting to turning the Anti-Arabism article into a list of names of disputed Arab origin.--الأهواز 23:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The father of Abu Nuwas was Yemeni? Are you sure? I read once that his father was Arab of mostly Persian lineage. Khorshid 23:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

His mother was Iranian, but I will check on his father. I am definitely sure though that he wasn't an Iranian Arab and he uses lots of Persian in some his poems: [2]. --Ali doostzadeh 05:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The use of Farsi in poetry is not a determinant of ethnicity. But it probably proves that he is of Iranian Arab origin. I do not believe he is of Yemeni origin.--الأهواز 09:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he is Iranian of Arab origin. I will research into it. BTW Yahya Gol-Mohammadi is from Ardabil and is not an Iranian Arab. --Ali doostzadeh 22:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed GolMohammadi since he is clearly from Ardebil and therefore can not be an Arab. Also I remember in an interview Iman Mobali said, after they asked him if he can speak Arabic, that he is a Bakhtiari not an Arab but he has moderate understanding of Arabic. So he says he is not an Arab but I don’t have any proof as it was an interview I saw a long time ago. Gol 08:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you please provide sources? Thanks. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Hossein Ka'abi is Arab from Khuzestan. His family is prominent aristocrat of Khorramshahr, and also in Ahvaz and Abadan (originated in Khorramshahr). There is no web source that I know but one can contact Iranian soccer federation for contact or contact al-Ka'abi family in Khuzestan for verification. Khorshid 10:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

OK I just noticed that he is from "al-Ka'abi" family or something so you are correct there I suppose --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the family is "al-Ka'abi" but they also go by "Ka'abi" in more recent years. The previous is the original name which means they are from Bani Kaab Arab tribe of Khuzestan and descended from the family of Sheikhs of Mohammereh. Before the war they were very rich and aristocratic, but afterwards lost almost everything just like others in Khuzestan. Fortunately his family is doing well and God willing he will have more success at the next World Cup. Our team needs more cooperation with each other rather than to be ruled by Karimi's unfortunate ego. :) Khorshid 11:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I still do not see any reason for this article. Iranian Arabs are Iranians like all Iranians and we are proud with them. There has always been small groups of traitors everywhere. For example MKO is a traitor group and its leaders are Khorasani (Masud Rajav) and Qajari (Maryam Rajavi). But like all Iranians, the majority of Iranian arabs are Iranian first. Also the articles requires many verifications, for example Mohsein Rezai was born in Masjid-e-Suleymaan which is not an Arab speaking city of Khuzestan. --Ali doostzadeh 05:45, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abu Nuwas different sources

Besides Mohsen Rezai who is not an Iranian Arab, Abu Nuwas is not an Iranian arab.

1) According to the book,Arabic Literature,by Pierre Cachia, pg 50: Abu Nuwas was of Persian descent.

2) Dr. Frye in his book heritage of Persian: Even in Arabic poetry, Persians such as Abu Nuwas and Bashar b. Burd excelled, pg 193.

3) Cultural Repertoires, edited by G J Dorleijn, H L J Vanstiphout, pg 52: The first great 'modern' Arabic poet, Bashshaar Ibn Burd (d. 783), a Persian by birth, met with scorn and rejection from some Arabs who resented his ethnic origin and his anti-Arab poems. Yet it did not take long for him to be recognised as an important poet. An even greater poet, Abu Nuwas (d. 813), also Persian, was attacked for his alleged plagarism and his bad language (in terms of both grammer and decorum), but was extremly influential and quoted more than almost any author.

4) The Making of Europe: An Introduction to the History of European Unity,by Christopher Dawson, 1956, pg 274: Persian or semi-Persian man of letters took leading share in Muslim culture, as, for instance, Abu Nuwas...

So besides Mohsen Rezai, Abu Nuwas should also be removed. There have been many great Iranian arabs and I have a close friend that is an Iranian Arab. I think we should just mention them under Iranian great personalities and then their ethnic origin can be given, if 100% sure, in their article.

Also the anti-arabism and anti-persianism articles are unfortunate and we should help build bridges. There is a good amount of Iranians and Arabs who mistrust each other, but this is not the majority of opinion. As the majority are both Muslims and helped create a common Islamic civilization. --Ali doostzadeh 05:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on Mohsen Rezai - he is in fact a Bakhtiari, but as one editor insisted on listing him as an Arab and tends to take an aggressive stance in any editorial disagreement, I have chosen not to intervene.

As for Abu Nuwas, my main dispute was your claim that he was also of Yemeni heritage. You'll have to define what you mean by Persian: ethnicity or nationality. This website argues that he is not only Arab but homosexual: [3]. There is also the matter of what "Arab" means. Some define it as linguistic, some as racial. It could be that he was an Arabic-speaking Persian or an Arab born on Persian territory. The further we go back in time, the more uncertain we are on these matters.

Regarding the anti- articles, there is no doubt that racism exists, as unfortunate as that is. But the fact that it exists as a general form of prejudice, historical resentment and as politicised communalism makes it worthy of an entry. We are not here to create what we perceive to be an ideal society. I am sure you will have come across those Persian extremists who want to purge Islam from Iran, viewing it as an alien imposition by Arabs and supported by "Arab parasts". In my mind, this devalues the Persian people, who have taken the religion of their conquerors and had an influence on its development. They are not passive victims, just as Arabs are not cultural oppressors. In my mind, the important thing is to value the contribution of Arabs to Iran's cultural life and as a minority group in Iran. I think Zereshk was trying to promote the idea that Ahwazi Arabs have played a role in Iran's cultural life, although I disagree with the notion that they have complete equality of opportunity.--الأهواز 10:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Right so the issue of Abu Nuwas is uncertain. But his mother was definitely a Persian and he might not even be from Ahvaz which at that time was predominantely Persian speaking. There are extremists everywhere, look at the Ba'ath party for example. The Arabs of Khuzestan are about 2% of Irans population and so that is why they are not that many that played an important role. Besides many of them have recently settled down from the tribal life and that is why most of them have the Bani-Ka'ab, Bani-Torof, Bani-Asad.. endings. Usually tribal people do not play as an important in the culture of a country. It is the sedentary people that do. --Ali doostzadeh 18:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The number of Arabs in Iran is more like 5 per cent of the population, but you are free to believe that they have no role in Iranian society. Let me tell you that settled agriculture in Ahwaz, particularly along the Shatt Al-Arab, is traditionally carried out by Arabs, whereas the Persian tribes were traditionally nomadic. The Lurs have been forcibly settled and mistreated, but it seems that few Persians seem to care enough to write about them. It's a shame, really, as local indigenous populations in that region - whether Arab or Persian - have been treated badly and marginalised by ruling elites yet have played an important role in trade and development. It's a shame you just see them as tribes who do not play such an important role in Iran's culture. Perhaps you are seeing culture from a metropolitan standpoint.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 18:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't believe the 5%, simply because there is no statistics. I am familiar with most regions of Khuzestan and the Arab population is mainly concentrated in SW. There is also a Sunni Arab speaking minority in Hormozegaan. But back to the point, culture is usually produced by sedentary people and urban people. That is cities are the ones that produce the cultural figures. As per regions being neglected, this is not just in Iran. Almost in all 3rd world countries, the capital and couple of other major cities do well, and the rest are left for the scraps. For example if we look at neighboring Iraq, Baghdad was the main city and the rest were not given electricity 24 hours. Or look at Mexico, where couple of cities are the main point of immigrations. As I said tribes played an important role in Irans history, but in terms of creating culture, it was the big cities that did that. So that is why for example in the Arab countries, Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus are historically producers of cultures and for example somewhere like Qatar, UAE, Kuwait.. where tribal people were settled down recently, has not produced something significant historically. Most of the Arabic speakers of Khuzestan have tribal names like Bani-Asad, Bani-Ka'ab, Bani-Torof and etc. and even the migrations of these tribes is well known. There were other Arabs who came to Iran during Islamic times (mainly Khorasan and Azerbaijan), but they were assimilated into the larger population after a few generations. -Ali doostzadeh 18:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel it is a very metropolitan viewpoint that tribal peoples have no culture. And I also disagree that any country has a homogeneous national culture. Even racially homogenous countries such as Japan have large regional variations. A country is the sum of its parts. Khuzestan is just one of many regions in Iran that has a rich cultural heritage that might not necessarily be part of the dominant culture as defined by the state. In this case, Arabs indigenous to the area along with the cosmopolitan nature brought about due to trade and migration along with its natural resources and fertility make it distinct from, say, Yazd. There are even villages where there are dark-skinned people who are descendents from Africans who mixed with the local population. It is not simply some backward province populated by tribes.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 19:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course everyone has culture and Khuzestan has a rich blend of various cultures as well. But for example a famous Iraqi scientist is more likely to come from Baghdad then say one of the nomadic tribes far away from the area. No one used the word backward. The point is that famous people (scientists, musicians, artists..).. etc. come mainly from major cities. --Ali doostzadeh 19:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it wasn't clear that you were distinguishing between "high" culture and the cultural practices of the people. I agree that in urban centres with strong institutional structures, people can aspire and achieve more fame than those areas that are developmentally "backward". Also, those close to the seat of power are more likely to achieve power than those more remote from the seat of power, whether it is in terms of geography, class, religion or ethnicity. This is not peculiar to Iran, but it is certainly more acute in some areas. As you point out, nomadic and tribal people from certain ethnic groups are as far away from state institutions and the economy as you can get, making it harder to be noticed. That is not to say they have no culture - the Arabs of Khuzestan have a culture that is distinct from other Arabs, while the local Persians have a distinct dialect, way of life and customs that are disctinct from the Persians in Fars (the Bakhtiari have a right to feel proud of their distinctiveness, even though they are just a few hundred thousand). But tribal peoples can be a great source of inspiration and it saddens me when they are neglected in any way.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 21:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)