Talk:Flight

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User:Someone else says "People are mammals, but they don't fly. They ride in planes." I disagree. People do fly. We build aeroplanes to enable us to fly. Just because an animal has to build something to enable it to do a thing, that doesn't mean they don't do that thing. Birds have to build nests to raise their young. I don't think anybody would argue that therefore birds don't raise their young! GrahamN 03:10 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

A relatively few people build or pilot airplanes. Many more people--and dogs, cats, and the occasional sea mammal--fly in them. This is a problematic line of argument. Vicki Rosenzweig 03:18 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

People (and other animals) fly in aircraft built and piloted by other people. Ants (and other animals) live in anthills built and run by other ants. This doesn't mean that people don't fly, nor does it mean that ants do not live in anthills. GrahamN 03:32 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You fail to distinguish the various meanings of flight. An animal that travels through the air with wings is doing something fundamentally different than an animal that operates an aircraft. The article itself distinguishes between animal and mechanical flight: human flight is in the latter category, and your addition was in the former. -- Someone else 03:47 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I realise that the question we are discussing is not at all significant, but I am surprised and intrigued by the opposition to what I had thought was just a simple mundane observation. I read somewhere about a type of spider that migrates over long distances by climbing to a high point, extruding a long silk thread and allowing itself to be carried away by it on the air currents. May I ask each of you: does this animal fly, in your opinion? If you think it does fly, then where exactly do you draw the line between this kind of very rudimentary spider-built aircraft, and the more complex human-built varieties? If you think it doesn't fly, then should we now open a section under the "mechanical flight" paragraph to deal with spider aviation?  :-) GrahamN 14:59 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It would depend on if you want to distinguish flight from gliding or soaring: by the strictest definition flight entails the ability to achieve lift "under one's own power", and animals considered capable of flight generally have the ability to go from a low place to a high place without absolute dependence on the wind. Sounds to me like this spider just falls really slowly. By a looser definition, one might say said spider flies (i.e., it travels through the air), but I wouldn't classify a web as mechanical. (Nor would a person hanging below an open parachute generally be said to be flying, in mid-air though he may be.) -- Someone else 16:29 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

By the strictest definition flight entails the ability to achieve lift "under one's own power" - I'm not sure this is quite right, is it? By this definition, one of the most successful flying animals ever, the wandering albatross, is scarcely capable of flight. They are absolutely hopeless if they have to flap - their wings are completely unsuited to the task - but they are astonishingly adept at soaring. They can detect and exploit the tiniest subtle variations in the energy of the atmosphere, and this enables them to travel half way around the world without once using their own power to achieve lift. I read somewhere about a fossil they found of some huge pterosaur - it had a 12-metre wing-span if I remember correctly. Yes, here is a Wikipedia stub article about it. They worked out that it would be physically impossible for it to flap its wings. It must have flown purely by soaring, and come to earth only on windy clifftops. Landing at ground level would have meant certain death. Competitive sailplane pilots regularly race around closed triangular courses of 500, or even 1000 kilometres. If these things are not examples of flight, then I'm a Dutchman! As for parachuting, how do you feel about about paragliding? This is a form of flight, surely? Again, competitive paraglider pilots race round quite sizeable courses - up to about 100 km, I think. But paragliders are nothing more than parachutes! I don't see any sensible place for you to draw the line you want to draw. And I don't really understand why you feel the need to draw it. GrahamN 01:55 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The distinction between "soaring" and "true flight" is not something I'm making up: others have found this distinction useful, as an Internet search for the phrase "true flight" will show. An example, which mentions your example of the pterosaur can be found at [[1]]. -- Someone else 02:04 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

rrytr The problem with human flight is that we can't fly other than by using manipulative organs to build the mechanical devices necessary to do so. A spider uses its innate biological abilities (producing threads) to achieve gliding in certain situations, as does Spider-Man, but regular humans need to build at least a glider to do so. It is this distinction which separates animal and superhero flight from human (mechanical) flight. --Eloquence 02:23 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Argh, I was just adding the phrase "under their own power" to the article, which I thought would solve everything, but then I noticed that lots of gliding animals are included. I suppose that either (a) they should be removed, or (b) the section on flying animals should be divided into two parts to discuss powered flight and gliding separately. Except that I suppose there must be a continuum from one to the other, so... no, I'm going to stop thinking about it. -- Oliver P. 03:02 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You're not Lir or Vera Cruz, are you GrahamN? There is something hauntingly familiar about your particular slant on splitting hairs precisely.

Addressing the broader question now, there is a distinction between flying animals and gliding animals. The spider GN mentioned does not fly, it glides (or rather, it drifts). The albatross does fly under its own power, though not very well, and so on. From the point of view of practicality, it is probably best to deal with powered flight (e.g., a swallow, bee or bat), gliding flight (e.g., Sugar Glider), and other forms of flight (e.g., spider with thread) all in the one article Tannin 04:14 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] first line/definition

does anyone else think that 'flight is the process of flying' is a bit of a ridiculous first line? i think it should be something a little more precise, perhaps:

"Flight is the process by which an animal or object which is heavier than air acheives sustained movement 'through' the air, either by its own power or with mechanical help."

any thoughts? it's not perfect, but it think it fits a little better with the article than the current one.Rich 22:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

no objections: i'm going to go ahead and work it in. Rich 22:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a good sentence, a big improvement; although you don't need the single quotes around through - DavidWBrooks 22:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

but maybe we should ask, how do we define what flight is? what are the mechanics of flight? how does anything fly? how does a bird flapping its wings attain what we might call flight? what are the processes invloved in heavier than air flight?

[edit] throwing

I am just curius about the difference between throwing oneself and flying, since whatever flies eventually will fall down, just like somehting thrown, such as a frisbee. just wondering what the technical difference is

I have been thinking similar thoughts. As the article stands now 'sustained movement in the air or outside the earths atmosphere' is flight. What qualifies as 'sustained movement' is up for interpretation I guess. I would say that a frisbee or ball flies under this definition. I think this is reasonable because spacecraft in orbit are in free fall in the exact way that a ball thrown on earth is.

the definition could be simplified to say something like "sustained movement not in contact with a ground surface" because driving a buggy on the moon could be called spaceflight because it is outside the earth's atmosphere.

I don't have any sources on how the scientific community defines flight, but I have a feeling there are disagreements between individuals and between fields.Diletante 20:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

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