Talk:Francisco Franco
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Spain which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details. |
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Fascism, an attempt to better organize and unify articles relating to the fascist ideology, its impact on history and present-day organizations closely linked to both of these (ideology and history). See project page, and discussion.
This article may be listed on an index of fascist movements or people. Such listing may be controversial; feel free to contribute to discussions there. The presence of this Talk page-only template only implies that the subject is of interest to the associated WikiProject. |
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
||
 |
This article is supported by the Politics and government work group. | ||
An event mentioned in this article is an October 1 selected anniversary. ---
 |
To-do list for Francisco Franco: | edit · history · watch · refresh |
|---|---|---|
|
||
Contents |
[edit] Archives
During his rule he was called as "El Caudillo de la Última Cruzada y de la Hispanidad, El Caudillo de la Guerra de Liberación contra el Comunismo y sus Cómplices" -- He was called this by who? This is nonsense and it ought to be removed. (alf - Madrid)
[edit] Legión Extranjera
This unit was founded in 1920 with the name "Tercio de Extranjeros" but it was informally called "La Legión" or "La Legión Extranjera" because it was founded and modelled after the French Foreign Legion.
In 1925 the name was oficially shortened to el "Tercio" and in 1937 to la "Legión".
[edit] Obscure wording
"The Legion symbolically, if not materially, saved the Spanish enclave of Melilla": what can this possibly mean? - Jmabel | Talk 06:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- The Disaster of Annual had collapsed the Army group which defended Melilla, and it was thought that the city, totally demoralized, was ripe to fall in the hands of Abd el Krim and his troops. The arrival of Franco's column (IIRC, June, 28th) and its three day march to position, seems to have been the key event which triggered the moral recovery of the city (and of its remaining military commanders) and allowed the reorganization of the defense positions. So, at least was how it was seen by contemporaneous accounts, and was the passport to Franco's entry in the Military Hall of Fame of that times.
- It's hard to believe that only this move saved the city, but so it went into the public opinion, long before he became Chief of State. Thus the wording on the article. Wllacer 09:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
How about "Franco's Legion forces executed a gruelling three-day forced march to the Spanish enclave of Melilla. Their arrival restored morale there, and was credited at the time with saving the city"? - Jmabel | Talk 05:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dictator, dictatorship
I am quite surprised to see that the word 'dictator', or 'dictatorship' seems to have been eluded, at least referring to Franco and his regimen. The only two times that 'dictator' is used, it refers to Hitler and Mussolini.
If you read List of dictators you read that Franco is 'often referred to as a dictator or caudillo', but it is not said that he was indeed a dictator. I think that Franco being a dictator is not under discussion.
Is there any reason for Franco not being referred as dictator in Wikipedia? Or have I misunderstood the terms?
- It could be a terminological prevention. The term Dictadura (without qualifiers) in Spanish history has always been understood as Miguel Primo de Rivera's rule(1923-1930). And there is another factor. The term "Dictator" has been -in regards to Franco- so abused, that its usage is to be avoided if one wants to keep a NPOV. This done, i think it's evident he was one (he wasn't a ruler neither by right of birth nor of election)Wllacer 23:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The controversy continues
Am including a small reference, plus link to the BBC original, to the following news item:
Franco guaranteed the maintenance of traditional values in Europe and we lack such statesmen today
Maciej Giertych, MEP, said: "Thanks to the Spanish army and Franco the communist attack on Catholic Spain was thwarted. The presence of such people in European politics as Franco guaranteed the maintenance of traditional values in Europe and we lack such statesmen today. Christian Europe is losing against atheistic socialists today and this has to change."
If he said that he knew nothing. It was the catholic church who has always attacked the people. The reaction of the people was just the natural consequence against the system. Anyway these words are just the fruit of his ignorance, they have no relevance for the article; it's just political propaganda.
Onofre Bouvila 04:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Not unlike you own words sir. As if terms like "the people" actual refer to anything even remotely meaningful. Take a look at what you mean by "the people" and you will see an amorphous group ranging from the most destitute to the unbelievably wealthy, from the moronic to humans of genus. Believing that such a group as "the people" can have anything in common with one another aside from their humanity is in itself ignorance. It is people like yourself sir, wording mindless platitudes such as "the people" to further who are attempting to further their own political ends. Perhaps you should be more clear for example instead of "the people" you could say non-catholics, socialists, communists, etc. Lets be clear, the counter-revolution of Franco, like all successful counter-revolutions, would never have succeeded if many of "the people" you claim rose up in mass against "the system" (a another absurd meaningless term) were not in supporters of the Second Republic.
The statement of Maciej Giertych speaks to a belief held by some in Spain and the rest of Europe. It also sheds light on why many argue the legacy of Franco. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.146.48.104 (talk • contribs) 18 December 2006.
The above-mentioned paragraph didn't mention Giertych by name, but somehow I knew right away that it was him. I just want to emphasize that the guy is an extremist nutjob, and his party has about a 3% approval rating in Poland as I write this. The paragraph, as it currently stands, implies that admiration for Fascism is widespread, which is not the case. --24.58.14.1 03:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ferrol: contradiction
This article says "between 1938 and 1969 his hometown would be known officially as El Ferrol del Caudillo". Ferrol, A Coruña says "…was officially known as El Ferrol del Caudillo from 1938 to 1982." One of these is wrong. Neither is cited. - Jmabel | Talk 02:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- Wayback to the rescue. --Error 16:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
-
- Thanks! By the way, its proper name is the Internet Archive. - Jmabel | Talk
[edit] López Ochoa
There is a request for a citation about López Ochoa's head being cut off & stuck on a pole in '36. I haven't readily found anything citable, but I have no reason to doubt [1]. It may be suggestive of research directions for anyone who wants to follow this up. - Jmabel | Talk 03:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cult of personality
The following was cut some time in the last few months:
Since Franco's death, almost all the placenames named after him (most Spanish towns had a calle del Generalísimo) have been changed. This holds particularly true in the regions ruled by parties heir to the Republican side, while in other regions of central Spain rulers have preferred not to change such placenames, arguing they would rather “not stir the past”. Most statues or monuments of him have also been removed; in the capital, Madrid, the last one standing was removed in March 2005.
It was vague and uncited, so I'm not restoring it, but if someone can write something solid on the topic, I think it would make a good addition to the article. - Jmabel | Talk 03:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- We need some text to anchor plaque images from Commons. --Error 16:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rise to Power
I've rewritten the section Rise to Power. The entire section was vaguely cited to the French translation of Hugh Thomas's The Spanish Civil War; no page citations were given, and there was quite a bit in the section that is not citable to Thomas (and quite a bit relevant in Thomas that was not in the section). I've rewritten with clear citations. There are several claims relative to Mola that I am sure are nowhere in Thomas, but that seemed important enough that if they are citable from elsewhere should certainly remain; I've marked them with {{cn}}. If no one can cite for these, they should probably be removed.
In general, a lot of the rest of this article has similar problems, but I only felt like working on the one section right now. There would be a lot of fertile ground for anyone who wants to do similar work. - Jmabel | Talk 06:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] About José Antonio Primo de rivera
In the section "rise to power" is quoted that JA Primo de Rivera was in prison in Madrid, but actually he was being held in a prison in Alicante. --Don severo 18:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm away from my books right now. If you are sure of that, feel free to change it. In any case, I'll look it up next week and cite for it. - Jmabel | Talk 16:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Unattributed opinion
From the article: "Because of the government's strong control of the economy, active government investment in private enterprise, and political ownership of the trade unions, Franco's Spanish State could be classified as "left" if it were not for Franco's distaste of Socialism and democracy." Oh, and his rampant and exclusive embrace of Catholicism, his friendly relations with Mussolini and Hitler, etc. But, above all, this opinion is attributed to no one. All it is is a rehash of the familiar fact that there are some resemblances between a basically fascist regime and state communism. And, actually, "active government investment in private enterprise" is not even something in common with state communism. In short, on the face of it this is superficial and misleading. It would make Imperial Japan "leftist", too. Unless this opinion can be attributed—and soon—it does not belong in the article. - Jmabel | Talk 16:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
