Talk:General Certificate of Secondary Education

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Contents 1 Statistics 2 Fast-tracking GCSEs 3 Vocational GCSEs 4 Exam tiers 5 Statistics 6 Two small issues 7 Corrections 8 A "Controversy" Section? 9 Revision links 10 Changing 11 O Level Grades 12 Uncommon Subjects 13 Science 'Triple Award' 14 "Effectively compulsory subjects"??? 15 Removed link to one guardian article 16 biased article link 17 Fudge? 18 "Uncommon" and "common" subjects... 19 Discussion of the equivalency to other educational systems 20 A mega rant, involving Latin, Others, History, Class Civ and Edexcel...

[edit] Statistics

I've changed Statistics from an uncommon subject to a common subject, because most schools I know offer it to their students (be it only clever ones and a year early :P) 84.71.91.98 18:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

we have to do stats at my school --Rebeccarulz123 23:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fast-tracking GCSEs

"Some public schools have even gone as far as removing GCSEs from their curricula and instead encourage their pupils to progress straight to A-level or the International Baccalaureate studies." I was not aware that this was the case; could any example be given?

I have not heard of any school doing away with GCSEs completely before moving onto A-levels, but I know a number of people who have simply become bored by GCSEs and decided to go to a college or sixth form to complete them in a fraction of the time before going on to study their A-Levels.

Also it is not unheard of to include, for example, A-Level maths or biology as well as GCSEs for students who the school deems capable of acheiving these qualifications early.

Eton has from the 2004 intake (so their last results will probably be in 2006) and I believe that Winchester, St Paul's, St Paul's Girls' and North London Collegiate are in the process of doing so.Alci12

[edit] Vocational GCSEs

The article talks about the changes happenign in Sept 2004 in the future tense. Have these actually happened yet? Thryduulf 17:51, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Exam tiers

The article says "...next is the intermediate tier, focusing on mathematics..." in a general discussion of different levels of exam. In my knoweldge the intermediate level exam is not avaiable in all subjects, perhaps only in mathematics. Is this what the article means, that in maths there is the 'extra' intermediate tier? I ask this because someone who doesn't know about GCSEs a great deal may take the article to mean that intermediate exams are about mathematics while the foundation and higher level exams focus on other areas. So maybe the article should be changed. Evil Eye 23:37, 24 July 2005

As far as I know, most subjects now only offer foundation and higher tiers for the exams. Regarding your above article, Year 10 students starting the Maths courses this year are taking new courses, which have changed from the three tier system to the two tier. DavidB601 19:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics

As people are always complaining about GCSEs getting easier, I wonder if we could get statistics showing the number of pupils achieving each grade over the years? Soo 18:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two small issues

1. In Structure "Normally pupils take ten GCSEs, though taking more is not unusual" Students normally take 10? where did this number come from? At my school we could take anywhere between 7 and 12, depending on the subjects we chose...maybe the wording could be changed to 'on average, students take about ten GCSEs, although more or less can be taken, depending on the combination of subjects chosen" Ok, that's a bit wordy, but you get the idea.

2. At the end of History "There are many GCSEs to choose from, with subjects ranging from accounting to Urdu." OK, a) this is not to do with history and b) whey were these ones chosen? i realise it displays the range available, but its a bit unprofessional just shoving that sentance on at the end.

Could I point out that the average pass grade and number of subjects taken in England is 5 at grade C. This would suggest that the normal number of GCSE subjects taken is lower than 9 or 10. The number of GCSE's that are taken is wholey dependant on the school and pupil. I should think that a significant number of the editors on Wikipedia have an above average level of education and therefore are likely to have taken more GSCE examinations. In addtion, there is no citation for the "normal" amount of GCSE's taken. I'm going to see if I can find something to back this up later (Adelphus 16:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC))

Most people take 9-10, but can only get 5 pass marks (the rest are Us) Eŋlishnerd(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 22:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections

I have made quite a few corrections to the article. I will outline them here:

• Changed description of GCSEs from 'examination' to 'qualification' (because that's what they are)
• Removed paragraph of intro made up entirely of information from later in the article, as things like a history of the qualification are not necessary for a basic understanding (which is what the article should offer)
• Changed the description of madatory subjects: ICT and RE are not compulsary GCSEs, though they must be studied at Key Stage 4 (along with Citizenship, PE and, in Wales, Welsh)
• Changed bit about grades: C cannot possibly represent an 'average' student, as D is the average grade; grades D-G are not fails, they are passes; reworded the U bit because it sounded like Us are only given to those who fail to complete the course; nearly all unis require C or above in English and Maths
• Removed POV bit about schools 'exploiting' fluent foreign language speakers and entering them for the relevant GCSEs
• Subject list: there is no such subject as 'English Language', it is called 'English'; removed English Literature, ICT and RE from madatory list (as they are not), though noted that many schools insist on English Literature also being taken; changed Science description to incorporate the new Science courses being introduced in Spetember (though I'm not an expert on Key Stage 4 Science, so please check for accuracy if you are); removed note saying that GCSE Citizenship was previously mandatory (it wasn't); moved Media Studies to common list as it is increasingly being offered as an alternative to English Lit
• Many minor grammar corrections

- Green Tentacle 20:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• I discontinue my interest in attempting to FA this article. Esteffect 21:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Why? - Green Tentacle 10:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

ict is a compulsary subject to do --Rebeccarulz123 23:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A "Controversy" Section?

Cutting to the chase, everyone knows that GCSEs are so dumbed-down that they are now worthless. Obviously, a wikipedia article worth its salt can't say that. However, it might be appropriate to include a section describing the annual controversy in the press about allegations of dumbing down versus government assertions that the exams are as hard as ever. Although it is bordering on POV, it can be statistically supported to say that the pass rate rises every single year, and short of some kind of profound misunderstanding of logic, we can therefore categorically state that EITHER each succeeding generation of children is more and more intelligent, OR the exams are getting easier every single year. It might be inferred that the increasing uselessness of GCSEs is the reason that more and more private schools have their pupils sit them early, and some are even moving away from them altogether. --Corinthian 12:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revision links

I think that there needs to be strict guidelines for which sites should be placed under external revision. For example there is a link to Ashbourne College offers no actual material and gives advice that could be found on any school website.

In my opinion site should only be allowed on there if they at least contain material on the three core subjects (English, Maths, Science) otherwise this section will be used as an advertising base for the countless revision websites on the net. --Sclaydonuk 16:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The link to the Newbank site is especially useless. Not only is there little actual content, but the website does not look professional and has formatting errors. Therefore I am removing it. --Ma8thew 10:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changing

Whoever keeps changing Statistics from common GCSe to rare GCSE, don't 81.79.13.179 11:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should adandon the common/uncommon/rare thing altogether. Skinnyweed 17:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Are there are sources which indicate which subjects are more/less common, or is it an editor's opinion? If there are no sources this distinction should be removed. It should probably be removed anyway as the separation is likely to be arbitrary. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why this list of "common" and "rare" is necessary. Surely it is only important to note the distinction between the core subjects that candidates are obliged to sit and those that are optional. --Corinthian 00:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Get rid of at least common/uncommon/rare otherwise there'll be just wrangling over it. Skinnyweed ^{(Talk | contribs)} 01:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be quite a dull list if we just listed all the subjects available in a single list. How should we split it? There seem to be some mandatory subjects; there are some specifically vocational subjects; and we could probably put all the languages into a single list. The current distinction between common/uncommon/rare is not a good one because it is too subjective. Any ideas? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to split them up as academic and non academic studies, or as someone said before as optional and compulsive subjects and those which can be both such as PSHE and Citizenship. However i dont think whether the list looks boring should mean that inaccuracies are acceptable.(Neostinker 18:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] O Level Grades

The table shown under "History" is incorrect. Only O Level grades A, B or C were considered to be a pass. D and E grades were a fail—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.80.240.166 (talk • contribs) .

I'm inclined to agree. I know everyone knows it's true, but is it technically true - were grades D and E officially called fails? I cannot find a reference. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Why would they have two different grades of failing? Loserdog³⁰⁰⁰

In my day, London University Examining Board GCEs were graded 1-9, with grades 1-6 being passes and 7-9 being fails (everyone got a grade)! -- CS46 23:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

PS: but not necessarily a certificate.

Looking into this a bit more, it seems that GCEs were definitely Pass/Fail before 1975 (with grades 1-9 as above only shown on result slips and not on certificates. (NB, London went its own way with grades A-E passes and F-H fails between 1968 and 1975!). After 1975, GCE results were graded A-E (or U if ungraded) but there were no passes or fails. There was however, a correlation between the old pass grades 1-6 and the new grades A-C, and hence everyone knew that C was a pass and D was a fail - but not officially. I think therefore that the reference to Pass in the GCE column should be deleted.

I also think there is some confusion over Pass with Distinction – this was a GCE A-level grading during the 50s and early 60s until the A-E pass grades were introduced, but I can find no reference to O-levels being so distinguished. -- CS46 23:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uncommon Subjects

I think it is a bit inaccurate to say that Expressive arts and humanities are uncommon subjects! In schools where i live these subjects are very very popular and i think to randomly place humanities (which is Geography, History, Citizenship, Politics and RE etc) in uncommon subjects. (Neostinker 19:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC))

Does this refer to Humanities as a singhle subject (does this exist?) or the Humanities (Geog, History and RE) at my school? 195.93.21.73 16:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Humanities can be a single subject I think because something was missing from the exam this year (it was in the news). Also, how can Astronomy be a common subject? I can't even imagine many schools offering it. (*Lolita_Haze* 15:45, 02/08/06)

I was just going to make a similar comment about Astronomy being a common subject. It's not even common at A Level, never mind GCSE. So unless someone can provide a source which tells me the vast majority of schools offer astronomy GCSE (surely an indication of a common subject is that most, if not all schools offer it) I will, within the next day or so move astronomy down to at least uncommon subjects. Evil Eye 14:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I recall a statistic of around 500 people nationwide doing astronomy, which definitely puts in into "uncommon" IMO. Also, only edexcel offer it, so there can hardly be much demand. (BTW, is there an astronomy a-level?) 82.28.46.79 19:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

How common is Engineering at GCSE level? I don't know any schools localy that offer it.

Like wise, no schools in Milton keynes offer the engineering at GCSE level (Neostinker 16:48, 27 August

2006 (UTC))

At my schol you have to do at least 1 humanty --Rebeccarulz123 23:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Science 'Triple Award'

Do people who study separate sciences have to study all three of biology, chemistry and physics? I'm sure I know some people who have just done two of these, but as far as the I can tell in the article it implies if one does separate sciences, that they do all three. My exams are from a few years back now, so was that once the case and have things changed now perhaps? Evil Eye 14:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think some specialist schools offer maybe one or two of the sciences as separate GCSE. But it's almost always done as standard as the triple award. I'm assuming that doing less than three of the separate sciences is very uncommon. --Spaztic ming 16:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's just that the people I have in mind went to a ordinary, standard 11-16 community comprehensive school. Sadly, not my school, they only joined my school in the sixth form, otherwise I might know more. I've lost touch with them too sadly, otherwise I'd ask them to find out. I'm nearly 100% sure one hadn't done biology to GCSE, only physics and chemistry and they were my lab partner in physics. We'll see what others might be able to add to this mystery :) Evil Eye 16:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The subject 'Science' (single award) gives a student a single GCSE grade having studied something of each of Biology, Chemistry and Physics. The subject 'Science (Double Award)' gave the student 2 GCSE grades (both the same) having studied a little more of each of the individual science subjects. There has never been a 'Science (Triple Award)', in other words a subject giving 3 identical GCSE grades having studied even more science. Students taking the 3 individual GCSEs, get 3 individual (and often differing) grades. I've therefore deleted the reference to a 'Triple Award'. And, yes, many do take only 2 of these 3 exams if they are particularly poor at the other subject -- CS46 20:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

i do single science yet it is all 3 sciences --Rebeccarulz123 23:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Effectively compulsory subjects"???

I'm pretty confident that English Language, Mathematics and Science are compulsory subjects set by the government, which means you have to take them. Spaztic ming 18:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's just a course in those subjects you have to do. For the vast amjority of people (probably over 95%, if not more than 99% - just figures picked out of the air) they will be GCSEs in those subjects, but not everyone will do GCSEs in them. At my placement school for teacher training this last year all but one pupil was going to be doing GCSE maths. The other was clearly not at the standard even to get a grade G and so, rather than have her definitely fail they put her on some other course so at least she had some sort of qualification in maths (I forget the name). They were also talking about how the next year they were probably going to have 5 or 6 people doing this other course instead. So the GCSEs aren't really compulsory, only 'effectively compulsory as I think everyone has to study those subjects and just about everyone does the GCSE qualifications. Evil Eye 19:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have Just received the results of my GCSE's along with all my friends, at our school and all local school Maths, Science and English are a compulsory subject, in some cases citizenship and RE are compulsory too. From what friends in other school have told me these subjects are compulsory by the government but different exam boards offer the courses in different ways. For example my school used AQA maths but another school near me used Edexcel maths which was a completely different course. (Neostinker 16:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC))

AQA and Edexel are just exam boards, organisations who set the exams. They will pretty much cover all the same things, certainly those things set down are required for 14-16 education with perhaps a few differences towards the higher level work. Which ever exam board your school chooses, you'll still all get the GCSE if you are entered for GCSEs in those subjects. Most people will be. Most schools will enter all their pupils for GCSEs in maths, English and some sort of Science, but not all schools will enter all people for the GCSEs in these subjects :-) Evil Eye 23:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed link to one guardian article

On grounds that the guardian article it was linked to was an account by one person on his opinions of the standards of GCSEs.

[edit] biased article link

Casn we please remove the link to the Brian J ford article, [1]. Far moer then 'subject to potential bias' as is warned, it is plain wrong and misleading. MHDIV Eŋlishnerd(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 22:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fudge?

Can anyone back up this term, I have never heard it myself. ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 10:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Uncommon" and "common" subjects...

Whence do these statistics come, and why are some subjects (like Photography) in both the common and uncommon sections? The Fish 20:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there are any data to back up these assumptions. I think that they should actually be removed. How relevant is it to the article to even list the subjects available. ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 18:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Latin, for a start is hardly an uncommon subject, especially in the private sector, whereas Punjabi is classed as common. I've never even heard of a Punjabi GCSE

[edit] Discussion of the equivalency to other educational systems

Could someone add a section of what the GCSE is in comparison to other educational systems in the world? For example, are the GCSEs equivalent to the SATs in the US? Are these tests taken at the end of compulsary education and the results determine a students possible path to higher education? What happens if a student fails the required GCSEs?

Lmblauvelt 15:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)LM Blauvelt

Yes, GCSEs do come at the end of compulsary education, and determin a candidates entry into higher education. But in England, compulsary education ends (for now) earlier than other nations (16 yrs.), it would be difficult to sum this up here, why not on the SAT page, or on a seperate article Comparison of international qualifications or such like, MHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 19:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

GCSEs do not determine entry to higher education (directly); they determine entry to further education (for those aged 16-18 and usually taken at a school sixth form or a college). Further education qualifications (A Levels) determine entry to higher education and are equivalent to the American SAT, as they are used for university entry, though the content is completely different. - Green Tentacle 18:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Most UK universities require some GCSE passes, but the focus is on A-Level. --Jonnymoblin 20:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Universities, normally, don't look at GCSEs. A-level results are more important, and especially now that Unis can look as the individual module marks GCSE grades are for the most part irrelevant

[edit] A mega rant, involving Latin, Others, History, Class Civ and Edexcel...

Firstly, "Others" sounds vague. Surely we can define some more groups. Secondly, do Science (Double Award), Biology, Chemistry and Physics need to be there, especially since they are referred to in the Core subjects box anyway?

Thirdly, I am moving Classical Civilisation from "People and Society Related" to "Humanities". Class Civ focuses on plays but also the lives of people historically, in the same way as History does.

Fourthly, I'm changing History : Modern International to History : Modern World. As far as I'm aware, none of the exam boards offer a course called Modern International, but I'm studying for the OCR Modern World History GCSE.

I'm also removing the "Only offered by Edexcel" tag beside Astronomy, otherwise we'd have to label lots of subjects with "Only offered by" tags (Unless there's a secret plan to do this and label all the courses with exam boards that offer them). I know for a fact that Latin and Classical Greek are only offered by OCR.

Which reminds me: should Latin be in the Languages box? I know it is a language, but unlike all the other languages, it involves no speaking element and requires in-depth analysis of literature at GCSE level. Maybe a "Classical Subjects" list would be worth looking into...

Rant over. Thanks for listening! --Jonnymoblin 21:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)