Talk:Giordano Bruno

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[edit] Revision

I am starting a revision of the article. First of all, I will remove the reference to the University of Venice, which did not exist in Bruno's time. Bruno moved to Venice after accepting Mocenigo invitation to teach him mnemonics and "inventiveness". My source here is the article about Bruno by Giovanni Aqulilecchia in "Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani". Aquilecchia is also the author of the article about Bruno in the Encyclopedia Britannica. 18:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I am soon going to revise the paragraphs about the role of Bruno's cosmological beliefs in his trial. Bruno's belief in the plurality of worlds and his overall cosmological model, where the Sun is just a star among many other, were actually amply discussed during his trial. I am also going to add more sources. Stammer 05:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've just revised the paragraph about Bruno's stay in England.Stammer 06:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Beside other minor edits, I have added a final paragraph stressing the still controversial character of Bruno's contribution. Moreover I have replaced the "astronomer/astrologer" in the opening paragraph with "cosmologist", which appears more appropriate. Stammer 09:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of the works that he composed and published in England are currently misattributed to his French period. I am going to fix that. Stammer 05:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Still work in progress. In the pipeline is a paragraph about Bruno's works on mnemonics during his first French period. 06:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I am removing and replacing the unsourced reference to "Masonic circles" sponsoring the monument in Campo dei Fiori. Stammer 11:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I am going to eliminate the unsourced references to Bruno's status as a "martyr of science" and the equally unsourced entry about "docetism", since I have added sourced material about Bruno's trial, including the Vatican's webpage about it. Referencing is a bit messy. I am going to clean it up later.Stammer 13:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I am going to add some final touches, minor edits and some links, but this is basically it for now. Stammer 13:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

I remember him claiming that the universe is infinite, filled with an infinite number of stars just like our sun. Did he actually claim that infinitely worlds with intelligences existed?

Yes. Remember, though, that he considered matter itself to be intelligent. -- Jmabel 21:57, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Also, in the last paragraph: It is claimed that he was burned for his Copernicanism and stated at his trial "Perhaps you, my judges, pronounce this sentence against me with greater fear than I receive it", but this is uncertain, since his theological beliefs were sufficiently unorthodox.

What is uncertain? That he said this to his judges, or that he was burned for his Copernicanism, or both? What he was burned for should be readily accessible from the trial documents, which survived. --AxelBoldt

Well, there's also the allegation by a very prominent historian of the English Renaissance (John Bossy, Giordano Bruno and the Embassy Affair) that Bruno was deeply involved in the Tudor efforts to suppress the Catholic Church in England - he was working in the French embassy in London as tutor to the ambassador's son. Bossy claims that Bruno's handwriting is recognizeable in letters to the secret service of the day informing on British priests. Bossy's book was not overwhelmingly positively received. His theology was certainly unorthodox - notice that he was condemned from multiple directions - so it may not have been "science", but "theology" that got him in the end. --MichaelTinkler, who had resolved to stay out of the post-medieval period.

I think he doesn't even have much science to show for and he certainly wasn't a scientist; I'm sure many of his philosophical/theological theses were considered heretical. --AxelBoldt

The final impulse to Bruno's trial was made by Roberto Bellarmino, the same one that is found later in relation with Galileo. He made the final accusation with 12 points, one of them, I think, was related to his copernicanism. I think the documents where it says exactly why was it burned do not survive,though.-AN

[edit] how many trials?

The text is also confusing on another point: was he tried in Venice, then tried in Rome? If both trials are worth mentioning, then we might as well be clear on this point.

I will leave it to another to expand on this point some or will do it later but it should be noted that he was first tried by the Inquisition (the Church). At this trial he was found guilty of heresy. From there he was handed over to the Secular Authorities of Venice who found him guilty and pronounce the death sentence. The Inquisition did not have the power to carry out a death sentence, (at least at that time and location). They could find one guilty of heresy but the sentence was carried out by Secular Authorities. --Chaoscrowley 12:29, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from Wikipedia:Translation into English

Article: ca:Bruno, Giordano
Corresponding English-language article: Giordano Bruno
Worth doing because: Material to incorporate into English-language article
Originally Requested by: Jmabel 22:17, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Status: in progress Jmabel 22:17, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Other notes: I haven't had a chance to read the Catalan article closely, but it looks like it's accurate, as far as it goes, and is more extensive than the English-language article. If no one picks this up soon, I'll do it myself. -- Jmabel 22:17, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It looks like no one else is picking it up, so I'll try. -- Jmabel 18:17, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC) Done -- Jmabel 05:45, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Article: de:Bruno, Giordano
Corresponding English-language article: Giordano Bruno
Worth doing because: Material to incorporate into English-language article
Originally Requested by: Jmabel 18:24, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Status: All relevant material translated and incorporated. -- Jmabel 19:34, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Other notes: Far more biographical material than the English-language article. -- Jmabel 18:24, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Looking at the German-language article...

The German-language article says that Bruno was forced to leave Rome in 1576 not because of religious matters but because of "einer (falschen) Mordanklage", "a (trumped-up) murder charge". Does anyone know a source for this? If true, I'd like to put it in the article, but I'm not sure I believe it. -- Jmabel 21:57, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The English-language article has Bruno handed by the Inquisition to the secular authorities January 8, 1600, the German article says February 8. Does anyone have a source for this? -- Jmabel 19:38, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think both are coming from Britannica. It says that he was unjustly accused of murder. And it was on February 8th, 1600, the death penalty was read to him. Aknxy 22:12, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

Speaking to the dicrepency in dates it is probably the same reason the Russian Revolution is dated October and November 1917, the adoption of the Gregorian calendar over the Julian calendar.

[edit] Hermes Trismegistus

The article mentions Hermes Trismegistus, but (1) only vaguely hints at the connection between his writings and Neoplatonism and (2) doesn't remark on the fact that in Bruno's time these writings were thought to be very ancient, but they are now thought to date from about 300AD. I would think this worth mentioning. Does anyone disagree? -- Jmabel 21:57, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No one having weighed in for 2 weeks, I will do this. -- Jmabel 19:39, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

According to Frances Yates the Hermetica were fundamental to Bruno's cosmology, even more than neo-Platonism. Also, from what I understand it is now thought that, however recent the Hermetica may have been it reflects thought which originated a great many years ago in ancient Egypt. Hieroglyphs have been discovered that testify to similar cosmological ideas as contained in those works ThePeg 23:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "astrologer, and magician"

Recent anon edit adds "astrologer, and magician" to the lead paragraph.

He definitely was an astrologer, like most people in his times with a reasonable knowledge of celestial mechanics. Not sure it's worth mention in the lead paragraph though. But magician? Can someone clarify what they mean by that in this context? Presumably not a conjuror... I'm pretty inclined to delete this, but since it's probably not a highly visible article, I'm first raising the matter here for comment and I'll leave it for at least a couple of days. -- Jmabel 06:16, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

Britannica.com writes "philosopher, astronomer, mathematician, and occultist". Occultist would be better instead of magician. Aknxy 22:07, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

I can live with that. -- Jmabel 03:33, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Restored

I restored this text: As a demonstration of mercy, the clerical authorities placed a bag of gunpowder around his neck before they set the fire, to spare Bruno, bringing his suffering to an end quickly. Although it seems strange to us, what matters is what it meant to them at the time. For an example, see this example from Foxe's Book of Martyrs. PRIIS 15:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "...his scientific ideas..."

I have edited the lead paragraph for style and at least for now left "...because his scientific ideas went against church doctrine," but I think that is at least a bit misleading. I'm pretty familiar with Bruno's writing and with writing about him, and his was not a particularly scientific temperament. His cosmological speculations paralleled the science of his time, but he was rather anti-mathematical. I don't see him as even as much a "scientist" as P. D. Ouspensky, to whom I don't think we'd apply that word. It is true that many in the world of science have tried to claim him as a martyr, but that doesn't mean that they were legitimate in doing so. Comments? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:57, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

Seeing Bruno as a martyr to science is certainly a Whiggish interpretation. I think it's misleading, and, depending on how you define "science," quite anachronistic. Bruno reached all his conclusions by pure speculation. PRiis 15:32, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Recent anon deletions

It was deleted that he was imprisoned in the Castel Sant'Angelo for six years before he was tried. I'm pretty certain that is accurate, but I don't have a citation. It was replaced by an equally uncited claim that "imprisoned for six years before he was tried, lastly in the Tower of Nona" but I thought he was in the Tower after his trial. Since there is no citation on either side, I don't know how best to proceed.

The following was deleted: "As a demonstration of mercy, the clerical authorities placed a bag of gunpowder around his neck before they set the fire, to spare Bruno, bringing his suffering to an end quickly. The authorities also nailed his tongue to his jaw to stop him from speaking." I don't have any idea whether this is true or not, but if it is, could someone restore with citation?

Again, I know about Bruno mostly from college 30 years ago, so I'm no authority. Could someone more familiar weigh in? -- Jmabel | Talk 18:40, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Was he pardoned by the Church?

Galileo Galilei was pardoned for his "crimes" in 1992 by the Pope. Has a similar pardon been issued to Bruno yet? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fred26 (talk • contribs) 8 Oct 2005.

[edit] Bruno x Galileo

"Like Galileo Galilei, his Copernicanism was a factor in his heresy trial. Unlike Galileo, some of his theological beliefs were also a factor."

Are you sure about this? Let me quote the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

"(...) in 1600 there was no official Catholic position on the Copernican system, and it was certainly not a heresy. When Giordano Bruno (1548-1600) was burned at the stake as a heretic, it had nothing to do with his writings in support of Copernican cosmology." [1]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.50.111.30 (talk • contribs) 17 Nov 2005.

I think this probably should change in the article. My own view is that in the eyes of the Church, the heretic Bruno's Copernicanism is a lot of what gave Copernicus a bad name, rather than vice versa. But I don't have a citation, and this is an area in which I would call myself clueful but not expert. Is there someone more expert who can weigh in? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:37, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a complex topic. It is not accurate to say that no documents about the trial survive. What is lost is the final verdict, which contained the motivations for the death sentence. There is actually a classic book by Luigi Firpo "Il processo di Giordano Bruno", which is based on a careful analysis of the surviving documents. It is available also in French, but, as far as I know, it has not been translated in English. Bruno's support for heliocentrism was an issue at the trial, but it may not have been decisive in motivating the death sentence. In my opinion the current article is a good starting point, but it could be improved, keeping in mind that Bruno's thought still has a remarkable capacity to stir controversy. I may try my hand at it in the next few weeks. I will add here a quote by Hans-Georg Gadamer that may give an idea both of Bruno's importance and the challenges it poses to the modern scholar: "For a long time, Giordano Bruno has represented a philosophical figure with immense symbolic power. During the period of conflict between the modern states and the Catholic Church, his martyrdom and his philosophical work were elevated to the status of universal notoriety. In the meantime, modern research has come to forget more and more the merits of the Italian Renaissance and the genesis of modernity's scientific culture". -- Stammer 15:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does this really belong?

In a recently added section called "In the movies":

Satire article from David Albrecht (2004) "reporting" on new Giordano Bruno film directed by Richard Dawkins

It's a clever piece of Satire on Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ, but it seems like a frivolous link. Wikipedia is not a repository of links, and I don't see what anyone turning to this page for an encyclopedia article about a historical figure would gain from the link. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Having received no response in over 24 hours, I am removing. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Such links document that Bruno's legacy is still alive in popular culture (cf. the "Influence and reputation" section in the Thomas More article as an example among many). I may re-integrate the link and add one to Bruno (webcomic). Stammer 07:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Bruno as an Occultist

I wonder why Giordano Bruno is described in britannica.com to have been an occultist. Other Encyclopedias do not mention something like this (for instance my "Atlas of Philosophy" in the German langage, dtv Verlag). I have also checked other websites and consulted two printed history books, without anything pointing in this direction... Any more info about this? mathaxiom 23:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Mathaxiom. I moved your comment - it’s a convention in Wikipedia to write the contributions at the end of the discussion page. I'd like to repeat that I already saw other works describing Bruno as a mystical, etc…, (but it was some time ago, and I don't remember where). Let's see what other people have to say. PS.: I’m also interested in the reasoning behind the (now gone) description of Bruno as a spy. --Leinad ¬

^{pois não?} 23:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have posted two listings of translations of Bruno that were recently put into English. Cause, Principal, and Unity, and The Cabala of Pegasus. In both these writings Bruno deals with matters that are occult in nature. Two short treatises by Bruno are included with "Cause" entitled "Essays on Magic" and "An Account of Bonding" both works deal specifically with magic. In addition "The Cabala of Pegasus" is a set of Dialogues wherein Bruno describes his cosmology using Cabalistic (Kabalistic) terms. Whatever we choose to call it I think these demonsrate that some reference to the occult or magic is justified. These parts of Bruno's life have not been noticed because a study of Bruno and translations out of Italian or Latin have only recently begun. De Magia only arrived in English in 98 and Cabala in 97. The Cabala is translated to German only in 2000 and at least 50 of his writings still remain only in Italian or Latin. Chaoscrowley 00:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

How can you say they have not been noticed? Frances A. Yates Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition dates from 1964. - Jmabel | Talk 06:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

When Yates book first arrived it was greeted with a fair amount of controversy. Yates work in general wasn't very well respected at the time. It took a number of years before it was accepted into the broader academic community. "Ignored" may be a bit of a strong word, but it was an area that wasn't really dealt with in his biographies and ideas even after Yates work. Considering the number of people who wondered about it on this site and are not able to find much on the idea, and the fact that Yates begins dealing with the subject 350 years after his death show that it is an idea that hasn't been dealt with in a major way. The fact that there had to be an actual discussion on why he was described as an occultist shows it is a matter that was not really noticed. If the idea was well known why would anyone post questions on Why he is described as an occultist? --Chaoscrowley 08:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd guess that most people don't encounter Bruno at all in the course of their education, or if they do it's a passing mention where he is misrepresented as simply a martyr for science. But I would also hope that anyone who has studied Bruno in any depth at all in the last 30-odd years has at least heard about Yates's work. But maybe I'm wrong, and I'd be interested in hearing about how Bruno's work is currently taught (if at all) at various universities. I'd also be interested in knowing the date of the "Atlas of Philosophy" referred to above. I read Bruno (and Yates on Bruno) in a course I took in 1975-'76, taught by Elisabeth Young-Bruehl (~~who I see doesn't have a Wikipedia article; I would think she should, I'll put that on my list~~ about whom I just wrote an article - Jmabel | Talk). In any event, I agree that, certainly, for several centuries, Bruno was co-opted successfully as a martyr for science and rationalism, which to me suggests that not many people actually bothered reading him. One might not go as far as Yates, but clearly Bruno was no rationalist. - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally I would go farther than Yates but not in this article. I have lived within walking distance of a Big 10 university for the last 10 years and I have only met two people outside of philosophy majors who even knew who Bruno was. He seems to be mainly passed over or treated overly dramatic as a copernican martyr, or a one paragraph side note. Considering the teacher of the course I think it could be said that she was probably open to ideas that were not always smiled upon by other professors. (a compliment) I would propose that he is still being ignored, although not as an occultist. A number of his works are still only available in the Omnia in Italian. People will continue to churn out "pulp" biographies by the dozen because he led an exciting life but outside the realm of Bruno scholars no one is going to actually read anything by him. --Chaoscrowley 02:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Solving the Martyr of Science Problem

It appears that there are some issues here of whether Bruno should be regarded as a martyr for science or if his death was due to theological heresy. I think this question can be solved. Some of the problems we are experiencing are due to outdated references. A partial document of Bruno's Inquisition trial in Rome was found in the Vatican archives and only recently released for public consumption.Vatican Archives. This negates the accuracy of most bibliography's being used here. In the late 90's nearly complete transcripts of his Venice secular trial were also found. I think the argument that we can't decide for what or why he was convicted due to lack of materials is negated. Bruno was never accused of holding the heretical idea of Heliocentrism. It was not a heretical idea at the time then. Bruno's interrogation involving Heliocentricity was in relation to his philosophical/theological ideas. Bruno inspired a number of later thinkers including Spinoza, and Hegel. He was offered the choice to recant multiple times and held his ground until death, unlike Galileo and others. If no one opposes I will gather some sources and begin in a few days and try to clear this idea up.--Chaoscrowley 13:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Spy section

I am completely removing the section on Bruno as a spy. The involvement of Bruno in the "Embassy Affair" as the informer 'Henry Fagot' was put forth by John Bossy a number of years ago, and he does make a convincing argument. Latter Bossy himself in "Under the Molehill", writing again about the affair, quietly acknowledges that he was wrong on a number of key dates, when the letters were written, and Bruno's whereabouts at the time. Since the reference was made invalid by its own author I don't think including this section is of any use. This is a direct quote from Bossy in the section entitled "A note on the date of Fagot's letter" pg.169

"If we choose the first [assumed date] we may like to imagine Bruno handing his letter to Sidney as he steeped on to the Queen's Barge which was to take the party festively towards Oxford, for Sidney to pass on to Walsingham on their return: what could be safer? But the later date, and a less distinguished postman, seems much more likely." --Chaoscrowley 11:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewriting the Apology from church

The apology section seems to be very poorly reasearched and attempts to paint Bruno as a murderer of Catholics. The Church never made these statements. I will wait for comment as I have edited a fair amount already. Here is the actual statement Catholic statement on Bruno on the anniversary. --Chaoscrowley 11:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I was just about to start a new talk section on this when I saw this one; even if it is factual it's a complete non-sequitur and demands explanation. —This unsigned comment was added by 172.156.47.17 (talk • contribs) 28 March 2006.

[edit] Immanant and imminent

I know it seems anal but I have changed imminent back to Immanent. The idea of immanence was central to Bruno's cosmology and left a large mark on Spinoza and those after him. I have wikified the words and I'm sure the subtle, yet in this case substantial difference between the two can be seen. --Chaoscrowley 10:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bruno as astronomer

I did some minor tinkering with the article; in particular, I added him to a couple of astronomer categories. The body of the article says (in contrast to the intro) that he was not an astronomer. I left the statement because, in context, I think it is intended to say that he didn't do anything with a high level of mathematics. At the same time, he did lecture and write on astronomy. I believe it is accurate to call him an astronomer with this qualification. Maestlin 05:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed

Citation is needed on a matter where our sources apparently do not all agree with one another.

The following was removed without comment:

Although the actual charge against Bruno was docetism, (adherence to the doctrine that Jesus did not actually have a physical body and that his physical presence was an illusion), and despite the fact that his theoretical work cannot be considered scientific, some authors have claimed Bruno as a "martyr of science". They see a parallel between his persecution and the Galileo affair, asserting that even though, unlike Galileo, Bruno's theological beliefs were a factor in his heresy trial, Bruno's Copernicanism was also a factor.

But the above "connection" may be exaggerated, or even plainly false. For example: according to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "…in 1600 there was no official Catholic position on the Copernican system, and it was certainly not a heresy. When…Bruno…was burned at the stake as a heretic, it had nothing to do with his writings in support of Copernican cosmology."^[1] In fact, the precise charges of heresy on which Bruno was finally condemned are unknown, as the official record has long been lost. The role (if any) of his heliocentric teachings and belief in an infinite universe is not a matter that can be conclusively proved on either side.

It was replaced by an uncited statement that "The numerous charges against him included blasphemy, immoral conduct, and heresy in matters of dogmatic theology, and involved some of the basic doctrines of his philosophy and cosmology." The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is usually considered a pretty decent (if tertiary) source. I would expect some discussion around saying that it is wrong. I would, especially, expect to see a citation. - Jmabel | Talk 17:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the old segment is more substantive, and has the added advantage of an actual citation. We really should have further discussion of this change before making it permanent. I will revert the page back [correction: reinsert section --V.]and request anyone preferring otherwise to discuss it here. --Varenius 23:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In film and fiction addition

I added the Margaret Gabrielle Long/Marjorie Bowen novel in this section. --User:jessnevins 9:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burned by whom?

I made the following edit: "Burned at the stake ~~by the Catholic Church~~ as a heretic…" As far as I know, he would have been burned by the civil authorities, even if his conviction was in an ecclesiastical court. I'm unaware of anywhere in Europe at that that time that the Church actually carried out executions. I could be mistaken on this, in which case, please produce a citation. - Jmabel | Talk 10:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bruno and Cusanus

The article ignores completely Cusanus view on the universe and the huge influence he had on Bruno. It even suggests Bruno developed his "theory" extrapolating Copernicus' heliocentric cosmos. Any evidence on that? Bruno had read Cusanus, he was influenced by Cusanus (as he mentioned him in his works) and Cusanus wrote on an infinite universe with infinitely many stars and systems where Earth has no special place. Cusanus argues (and on that also Ficino) the center of the universe is ubiquitous and the circumference is infinite. Cusanus also argues on a spherical Earth (but that was not so rare in the "Aristotelic Middle Ages"), but a rotating one. Daizus 17:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bruno's cosmology

It is currently written as it is a kind of modern cosmology missing few things here and there. Daizus 13:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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