Talk:Greater Romania

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Contents 1 "Romania Intregita" 2 Bias? 3 Irredentism, my arse... 4 The whole Romania is greater than the 1920-1940 border in the original 'Greater Romania' idea 5 POV pushing 6 The greatest Romanian state on traditional Romanian land 7 Irredentism, again 8 Whom, exactly, did that council represent?

[edit] "Romania Intregita"

The article now says, 'The politically correct Romanian term "Romania Intregita" has its closest meaning in English as "Whole Romania".'

1. Shouldn't this be "România Intregita"?

   România Întregitā indeed.. it's a plague, romanians are using Western European Encoding Keyboard instead of switching to Central European keyboard, i'm plagued by this too -- Criztu 19:41, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

2. A few questions: how common is this usage? I get less than 200 Google hits.

   Romania Mare (greater romania) was hijacked by a political nationalistic party. (Criztu, unsigned)

   • Yes, I added had already added a statement to that effect to the article, but that doesn't answer how common is România Întregită. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

3. As a native English speaker, "Whole Romania" is certainly something I would never think to say. What is the basis for saying this is "its closest meaning in English"? I would say "Integral Romania" or "Undivided Romania".

-- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

in 1919 Romania was "whole again", not "integral", and now is "incomplete", not "divided" . romanian word "intreg" means 'whole; entire' -- Criztu 19:41, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'd misread, even while copying: I'd thought the root was integrală.

Perhaps "The Entirety of Romania" or "The Whole of Romania"? "Whole Romania" just isn't likely English. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias?

This recent pair of edits strikes me as deliberate introduction of anti-Romanian POV. From everything I'm aware of, what happened in 1918 is generally considered union, not annexation. I am reverting. If anyone has a solid citation for considering this an annexation, please present it. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:27, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irredentism, my arse...

I've removed the categorisation template that qualifies Great Romania as "irrdentism". That is obviously anti-Romanian bull. Irredentism refers to the desire to annex territories that never belonged to your country in the first place, thus it is an act of aggression. The 1918 unification of Romania can in no way be called irredentism, as it was the unification of historical Romanian territories that were unjustly taken away by various other nations. If I see the word "Irredentism" here again, I'm deleting it on the spot. So behave ! -- Voievod 18:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comments where I responded to your similar remark at Talk:Corneliu Vadim Tudor. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

My answer to your comments would also fit well as a reply to this discussion, but cutting and pasting the whole damn thing seems like overkill at this point. -- Voievod 23:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

"nification of historical Romanian territories that were unjustly taken away by various other nations"

thats what every iredentist says. Romanians used their alliance with the West, and with Hitler later, to forcebly expand into territories with mixed populations and to annex them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.68.95.200 (talk • contribs) 5 Feb 2006.

"nification"? I presume "unification"? - Jmabel | Talk 06:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can't expect much from a revisionist, let alone how to spell ! ;-D - Voievod 17:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The whole Romania is greater than the 1920-1940 border in the original 'Greater Romania' idea

This idea said, that every land is a Romanian territory, whereever the great rivers (Tisza with the river Bodrog and Dnister) of the Romanian Carpathian Mountains (Eastern and Southern Carpathians) spread out their alluvial deposit. So Greater Romania is the territory between the River Tisza and River Dnister. It consist of the Carpathian Ruthenia and North-Bukovina (nowdays in Ukraine and East-Slovakia - Presov and its vicinity), the Hungarian territory east of the river Tisza, Republic of Moldova (without Transnistria), Lower-Moldavia (nowdays in Ukraine) South-Dobruja (nowdays in Bulgaria), and West-Banat (nowdays in Serbia: East part of the former Province - Vojvodina) and - naturally - Romania.

[edit] POV pushing

References to irredentism is repetedly being edited out of the article. This may be an example of POV pushing and additional attention concerning the issue is warranted. -- Domino theory 22:58, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The greatest Romanian state on traditional Romanian land

Dobrogrea can be disputed as "traditionally Romanian", and the Cadrilater is certainly not one. Moreover, "greatest" can be disputed when taking into account Antonescu's annexation of Transnistria.

I believe that this article needs a rewrite, I am willing to participate in it. The points that make me a bit nervous are the lack of explanation of the fact that "Romania Mare" was not an irredentistic term before 1940. It could not have been, for the term appeared after 1918, when the unification was completed.

Also, I already deleted the "politically correct" nonsense with "Romania Intregita". I have never heard of this stuff, and I can assure you I'm reading Romanian journals every day.

Finally, I would put the irredentism tag not on this article, but on the RM party one. Dpotop 15:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The Irredentism category is put on all of the "Greater" movements, be they Greater Albania, Greater Hungary, Greater Armenia, Greater Finland, etc. The Romania Mare party is just a party, and should therefore not have the tag on it, particularly since, despite its name, it hasn't really pushed for any reclaim of "Romanian lands" actively (its rhetoric is more confined to pro-ethnic-Romanian action within Romania). Ronline ✉ 04:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

<<The Irredentism category is put on all of the "Greater" movements>>

But I don't think there is such a movement at the present time. As you have already observed, even the Greater Romania Party focuses its attention mainly on the present teritory of Romania. It looks to me the article is about a teritory, not a movement. At least that's how it begins: "Greater Romania (România Mare) generally refers to the territory of Romania in the years between the First and Second World Wars."

I will modify the following phrase: "In 1918, at the end of World War I, Transylvania and Bessarabia united with the Romanian Old Kingdom" to "In 1918, at the end of World War I, Transylvania, Bukovina and Bessarabia united with the Romanian Old Kingdom". I will also include a bit lower in the text the following fragment: "in Bukovina, a National Council representing only the Romanian population of the province, voted for union with Romania". Bukovina deserves to be mentioned along with Transylvania and Bessarabia, sincee it represented a separate administrative unit and it united with Romania independently of the other two regions, so it's a separate case.

P.S. As a politically correct alternative to Greater Romania/Romania Mare, I propose România Dodoloaţă. :p At least that's an expression I've heard before.Bogmih 09:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I will delete the mark, for no such "Greater Romania" movement exists right now outside the Greater Romania party. Dpotop 09:53, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I think a Greater Romania movement does exist in a quite widespread fashion. Many NGOs, including associations like the Fundaţia Naţională pentru Românii de Pretutindeni, seek to bring about a Greater Romania, or at least view Moldova and parts of Ukraine as "Romanian lands". Sure, the movement isn't particularly well-planned, but there is quite widespread sentiment among some people that Romania should reclaim some adjacent territories (particularly the Romania-Moldova union movement, which is quite popular). Ronline ✉ 09:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then you can create a "Greater Romania movement" article. :) But frankly, it's quite artificial. Dpotop 12:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I had not read this when I made my recent edits. I believe that, even without reading it, I correctly handled the issue of extent by using the phrase "largest peacetime extent".

I had restored the România Întregită thing because it was removed without an edit summary. I did not restore it from any specific knowledge. If it is not, in fact, used, please remove from the article (but I suggest that this time you add an edit summary, "See talk." Two little words, very useful. - Jmabel | Talk 01:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irredentism, again

"România Mare was seen (and is still seen by many) as the natural national Romanian state, and a symbol of national renaissance." So, given that quite a few of the eastern territories are not currently part of the Romanian state, how is this not, today, irredentist? - Jmabel | Talk 20:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

In a historical context, "Greater Romania" is not irredentist. It's just like talking about the British Empire in a history book. In a political context, as the article says, the term is irredentistic whenever it is taken as a goal. Dpotop 20:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that, but does that mean that it shouldn't be in Category:irredentism? Is there an article that would be more relevant than this one to Romanian irredentism? If not, I think this should be linked in the category. - Jmabel | Talk 21:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whom, exactly, did that council represent?

I'd like to call people's attention to quite significant, if small edit with no summary or citation by an apparently new contributor. There is quite a difference between "a National Council representing only the Romanian population" and "a National Council representing the population". I've never been entirely clear on what happened in Bukovina at that time, and no sources are cited either way. - Jmabel | Talk 17:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)