Talk:Guan Yu

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[edit] Accuracy

This article follows the tale of Guan Yu given in Luo Guanzhong's "Romance of the Three Kingoms" and makes little effort to reconcile this fictional account with the historical account given in Chen Shou's "Sanguo Zhi".

Yeah, but, Luo Guanzhong's "Romance Of The Three Kingdoms" couldn't have changed changed and exagurated that much. Besides, Guan Yu was an amazing man, and I believe that Guan Yu could've done all the things in The "Romance Of The Three Kingdoms", except maybe his after life tales like the killing of Lu Meng and fatal illness of Cao Cao.

"Could've" is more in the realm of fiction, not history. Encyclopedic entries usually don't contain information about what an individual could have done. --Jie 00:06, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

While Sanguo Zhi isn't the absolute correct source of historical facts, Luo's RotTK is most certainly NOT a reliable source. Much of the myth around Guan Yu is perpetrated by the portrayal in that book, and it's downright juvenile to assume Guan to be the "amazing man" that Luo makes him out to be. --Uly 16:12, 31 Dec 2004 (U

[edit] Entitling

In section 1 paragraph 1: he fled to the northern frontier town of Zhuo, where he joined Liu Bei, a local notable. What's a "notable"? Is it supposed to be "noble"? From what I understand, though Liu does trace his bloodlines to an already distant branch of the imperial family, the connection is so distant that he could hardly be considered nobility. (Not to mention that he was described as a strawhatter in the RotTK -- albeit one that's literate.)

Liu Bei was known in his commandery as a man of importance. He had a large group of followers and merchants were willing to offer him capital. Hence he is described as a "notable". --Yu Ninjie 14:36, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that is supposed to be noble- Azi Dahaka

[edit] Revamp

Hi fellow editors. i've made several major changes to this article over the past few days. Among these were the movement of contents from Guan Gong to here, as well as rewriting of most stuffs originally here. The latter is a matter of style and up to individual liking, but i'd like to point out three factual corrections i had made.

Firstly, the county in which Guan Yu was born is pronounced as "Xiè" and not "Jiě". And it is in Shanxi, not Shaanxi.

Secondly, Guan Yu was not enfeoffed as Marquis of Hanshouting, but rather Marquis of Hanshou. "Tinghou" is the lowest rank of marquis at that time.

Thirdly and most importantly, the killing of five officers to reconcile with Liu Bei did not happen in history. It was a romanticization in popular culture. Please let me know if i'm wrong about this.

That's all for now. i'd be doing more reorganizing for the remaining sections in the days to come. Hope you guys like it. :) --Plastictv 10:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

This was added by an unregistered user (IP address: 165.21.154.10). It seems to be a quote by Guan Yu from a Buddhist scripture. i removed it because: 1. the information is not relevant; 2. it is not sourced; 3. it is not translated.

帝君曰﹕人生在世﹐貴盡忠孝節義等事﹐方於人道無愧﹐可立於天地之間﹐若不盡忠孝節義等事﹐身雖在世﹐其心已死﹐是謂偷生﹐凡人心既神﹐神既心﹐無愧心﹐無愧神﹐若是欺心﹐便是欺神﹐故君子三畏四知﹐以慎其獨﹐勿謂暗室可欺﹐屋漏可愧﹐一動一靜﹐神明鑒察﹐十目十手﹐理所必至﹐況報應昭彰﹐不爽毫髮﹐淫為萬惡首﹐孝為百行先﹐但有逆理﹐於心有愧者﹐勿未有利而行之﹐凡有合理﹐於心無愧者﹐勿謂無利而不行﹐若負吾教﹐請試吾刀。敬天地﹐禮神明﹐奉祖先﹐孝雙親﹐守王法﹐重師尊﹐愛兄弟﹐信朋友﹐睦宗族﹐和鄉鄰﹐敬夫婦﹐教子孫。

時行方便﹐廣積陰功﹐救難濟急﹐恤孤憐貧﹐創修廟宇﹐印造經文﹐捨藥施茶﹐戒殺放生﹐造橋修路﹐矜寡拔困﹐重粟惜福﹐排難解紛﹐捐資成美﹐垂訓教人﹐冤讎解釋﹐斗秤公平﹐親近有德﹐遠避凶人﹐隱惡揚善﹐利物救民﹐回心向道﹐改過自新﹐滿腔仁慈﹐惡念不存﹐一切善事﹐信心奉行﹐人雖不見﹐神已早聞﹐加福增壽﹐添子益孫﹐災消病滅﹐禍患不侵﹐人物咸寧﹐吉星照臨。

若存惡心﹐不行善事﹐淫人妻女﹐破人婚姻﹐壞人名節﹐妒人技能﹐謀人財產﹐唆人爭訟﹐損人利己﹐肥家潤身﹐恨天怨地﹐罵雨呵風﹐謗聖毀賢﹐滅像欺神﹐宰殺牛犬﹐穢溺宇紙﹐持勢欺善﹐倚富壓貧﹐離人骨肉﹐間人兄弟﹐不信正道﹐奸盜邪淫﹐好尚奢詐﹐不重勤儉﹐輕棄五轂﹐不報有恩﹐瞞心昧己﹐大斗小秤﹐假立邪教﹐引誘愚人﹐詭說昇天﹐斂物行淫﹐明瞞暗騙﹐橫言曲語﹐白日咒詛﹐背地謀害﹐不存天理﹐不順人心﹐不信報應﹐引人作惡﹐不修片善﹐行諸惡事﹐官詞口舌﹐水火盜賊﹐惡毒瘟疫﹐生敗產蠢﹐殺身亡家﹐男盜女淫﹐近報在身﹐遠報子孫﹐神明鑒察﹐毫髮不紊﹐善惡兩途﹐禍福攸分﹐行善福報﹐作惡禍臨﹐我作斯語﹐願人奉行﹐言雖淺近﹐大益身心﹐戲侮吾言﹐斬首分形﹐有能持誦﹐消凶聚慶﹐求子得子﹐求壽得壽﹐富貴功名﹐皆能有成﹐凡有所祈﹐如意而獲﹐萬禍雪消﹐千祥雲集﹐諸如此福﹐惟善可致﹐吾本無私﹐惟佑善人﹐眾善奉行﹐毋怠厥志

--Plastictv 11:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further improvements

i've roughly completed my work on Guan Yu. However, it is still far below satisfactory. i'd like to add more info on Guan Yu worship as well as Guan Yu in operas but the issues are complex and my knowledge in these areas is utterly hopeless. Anyone who is an expert in this please help? i'd also like to make the article more concise without losing important details but didn't seem able to do so... --Plastictv 05:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I believe there should be redirects for the cantonese spellings of words (ie: General Kwan->Guan Yu) As a practicioner of Hung Gar, I am more familiar with cantonese pronouciacion of Kwan Do and General Kwan, and it took me alot longer than it needed to to find this article.

[edit] Sword or guandao

The reason why Guan Yu as Sangharama wields a sword is that guandao did not exist at the time Guan Yu was deified in Buddhism. The idea of guandao probably came much later in Yuan Dynasty or even Ming Dynasty, appearing in operas and, of course, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. i also put "Sangharama Bodhisattva" in parenthesis because it is not Guan Yu Buddhists are worshipping, but rather Sangharama (just like a monk adopts a faith name and abandons his mortal name when he enters the faith).

It is also arguable whether we should transliterate his famous weapon as Guan Dao, Guan Dao, guandao or perhaps something else. i'd support guandao, though. --Plastictv 15:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a Chicken and Egg problem. After the egg is hatched, should you call it an egg or chicken? Likewise, if you are describing how the egg is laid, you wouldn't call it a Chicken, would you. :-) Kowloonese 01:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fact and fiction

i removed the following text addded by the previous editor because it gives a fictional account of Guan Yu's departure from Cao Cao, which is already covered in the "Guan Yu in Romance of the Three Kingdoms" section. There is a difference between historical record and historical novel.

However, under the prompting of some of his subordinates, Cao soon realised what a threat Guan presented if he should unite with Liu Bei. Many generals, some acting under Cao's instructions and some on their own accord, pursued Guan as he passed through the gates. Some were slain in the process and eventually Cao personally endorsed the departure of Guan.

Hopefully with this explanation, nobody gets offended by the removal. :) --Plastictv 15:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Re. folklore 21 December 2005 Folklore about Guan Yu is part of the tradition. One would not delete fictional accounts from an article simply because they are not historical. Rather, one can distinquish folklore that is probably fictional from what seems to be more certain historically in an article.

[edit] Green Dragon Crescent Blade

User 69.231.246.224 changed the text "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" to "Blue Moon Dragon". I posted the following on their talk page:

Hi there. :-) I note that you've replaced all references to "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" with "Blue Dragon" (specifically on pages Guan Yu, Green Dragon Crescent Blade, and Guan dao). I wondered what your motivation is for this? I ask this in particular since the page Green Dragon Crescent Blade does reference the alternative name in the second paragraph: "It is also sometimes referred to as Blue Dragon...". Further the Chinese characters "青龍偃月刀" mentioned in the Guan dao article (in the first paragraph of the History section) do actually mean "Green Dragon Crescent Blade". Finally, in replacing the name with "Blue Dragon" you have removed all of the links to the page Green Dragon Crescent Blade. I thought I'd ask you first rather than undoing your changes without talking to you.

Stelio 23:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Having not heard anything from them, I have now restored the text to "Green Dragon Crescent Blade". Stelio 19:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MilHist Assessment

I have absolutely nothing negative to say about this article. It is long, detailed, and thorough, and even includes a good number of pictures. I especially like the top one, which is of great quality and clarity, and of a good, impressive size, without infringing upon the text at all. The article treats not only the historical Guan Yu, but also the fictional Guan Yu from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, along with the portrayal of Guan Yu in gaming, and the worship of him in various places and faiths. I am nominating this for "Good Article" status, and, I don't see why not, for A-class status as well. If there is anything to be improved here, it is the general clean-up and maintenance that any article requires - nothing's 100% perfect. LordAmeth 01:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article=

This is not a good article. Work on including footnotes. If you have no footnotes, do not bother nominating it as a Good Article. --GoOdCoNtEnT 06:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

An article should not need in-line footnotes as long as the content is good and references are listed. As I said above, this article has excellent length, detail, and choice of content, as well as some very nice pictures. LordAmeth 11:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disparity

On the Guan Yu page it says:

"Also according to folklore, Guan Yu's weapon was a guandao named Blue Dragon Crescent Blade, which resembled a halberd and was said to weigh 82 jin (41 kilograms using today's standards)."

On the Guan Do page it says:

"Guan Yu's guan dao was called "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" (青龍偃月刀) which weighed 82 Chinese jin (estimated 49 kg.)"

Which is correct?

The Chinese character 青 can mean either blue or green. The proper translation into English depends on the context.Javiskefka 15:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

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