Talk:Guangzhou

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[edit] Park 19

Random passerby: Could someone check out Park19, they claim to be an artists group from this city, but I can't read a word of their site, if someone is framiliar with the group, or can do a pinch of research, perhaps you could add it to a stump category, or do a bit of a write up? Or of course, there is the chance that this is a local garage band that wanted free web pressence, in which case, give it the axe? bigmacd24 Bigmacd24 22:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence removed

Sentence remoevd:

Guangzhou was sacked by Arab raiders in the 8th century.

May one provide the source? kt2 02:35, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Source: A Borrowed Place: The History of Hong Kong by Frank Welsh, Maya Rao (Editor). page 13. The text of this page can even be viewed at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1568361343/ref=lib_rd_ss_TT03/103-1055282-6603831?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=7#reader-link - so, I am restoring the sentence. olivier 03:02, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Surprising, more opposing evidences would be needed. Keep this sentence for now kt2 03:11, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

okay, the incident was verified to be ture. kt2 04:00, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Good job kt2! olivier 12:07, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

:) 大将军, 都督中外诸军事 (talk) 07:23, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

This website rox!Who here agrees???

All of us. That's why we edit here. ➨ ❝REDVERS❞ 23:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Population

There seems to be a complete mess and inconsistency in terms of the relative populations of Chinese cities. This article states that Guangzhou is the 5th biggest city, but doesn't say on what list or compared to what other cities on what terms. Other places within wikipedia place it from 3rd to 9th. Does anyone have a proper sourced official list of the cities that could be properly referenced or used as a basis of bringing some consistency to this?

[edit] Reference to marimari.com

Can someone change this link to the right page - I have searched high and low on that website and I can't find anything to do with GZ there. It should be deleted if it doesn't link to anything related to this topic. (JROBBO 07:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC))

Done. Yeah, I've always thought this policy of "put the main page of the website, not the specific page" had problems. Perhaps I've misunderstood something... JackyR 10:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Its name in Cantonese

Should its name as pronounced in Cantonese be mentioned somewhere in the article? Cantonese, instead of Putonghua, is natively spoken. — Insta ntnood 04:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I just noticed that too. It would also help explain "Canton", which is explained in the article as having come from Cantonese, but the source is not given. Any Cantonese speakers willing to help? Lesgles (talk) 16:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Done.Yuje 03:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks so much. — Insta ntnood 08:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The best Cantonese pronunciation for GuangZhou I can get from Microsoft Sam is Gornd Zout, by LeurngZiiHynd 04 october 2006.

[edit] The Name

I realise I'm talking to the air here, but this article ought to be titled Canton (City) or Canton (China), as this name is far, far more commonly used in English than Guangzhou, and much more recognisable. Moscow not Moskva, Venice not Venezia, Germany not Deutschland. Can't we be more consistent and user-friendly here? Sikandarji 14:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

My baby sister was just adopted from QingYuan SWI in Guangzhou in August 2006. My parents and the agency called it Guangzhou. 68.171.240.254 13:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

As far I know Canton is sorta outdated...if it's worth anything, my old globe (like '95?) has "Guangzhou". plus, isn't Canton the translastion of the province name, not the city? 66.41.59.162 15:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The article's name has just been moved to "Guangzhou", and I agree this is correct. LDHan 10:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

No, this is an English-language encyclopedia, and the name in English is Canton. It is exactly as Sikandarji has reasoned. I don't doubt that you can find some recent references that have preferred "Guangzhou", but they are simply out of alignment with common English usage. What we ought seek, here, is the name that is most easily recognizable to English-speakers, as against a name that some parties want to foist onto the English-speaking world as (politically) "correct". -- Lonewolf BC 21:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

WP naming convention for Chinese place names states that place names in mainland China should be named using pinyin. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sikandarji's reasoning there is not exactly correct. That logic only applies to why we don't name the article "廣州". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 04:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahem... A guideline page with neutrality tag atop it is not what I'd call convincing. In any case, guidelines are only guidelines, and have their exceptions. The guideline is that for places in Mainland China, the Pinyin names should be used (as opposed to Wade-Giles or some other system of romanisation). Fair enough, but most places in Mainland China have no well-known names (or any names known at all) in the English-speaking world. Canton is a rather glaring exception to this and, despite the strenuous efforts of name-revisionists, Canton remains the name by which this city is most commonly known to native English-speakers. Sikandarji's reasoning is exactly correct -- though I don't know what you mean by "廣州". (Do the questionmarks represent characters of Chinese writing, perhaps? If so, you make a false parallel, whereas Sikandarji's examples of cities with native-tongue names that differ from their English names were all written in the roman alphabet, either way.)
-- Lonewolf BC 10:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

廣州 is Guangzhou in Chinese. You need a font to see the characters.

Also, the Chinese and American governments refer to the city as Guangzhou:

Let me give another analogy:

Quite recently the Korean city of Seoul requested that Chinese speakers refer to the city as 首爾 (Shou'er). Before this, Chinese speakers have always referred to the city as 漢城 (Hancheng), and have done this for decades. 首爾 (Shou'er) is an invention of the Seoul Municipal Government, and was designed so that its pronunciation is close to "Seoul".

To be honest, many Chinese people were not impressed by this. 首爾 (Shou'er) was perceived to sound somewhat comical / unnatural, and many crude jokes appeared based on puns of this name. Everyone was used to referring to Seoul as 漢城 (Hancheng). After all, 漢城 (Hancheng) was the Chinese name for Seoul, and why should Koreans dictate what is right or not right in the Chinese language? Clearly, the strenuous efforts of these "name-revisionists" should not affect what Chinese people use.

Nevertheless, the Chinese Wikipedia switched over to 首爾 (Shou'er) within a month, probably before many Chinese even knew about such a change. After all, if other people prefer to call themselves something, and there's no coherent reason not to call them that, then we will call them that.

-- ran (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right: The actual Chinese usage ought prevail over what Koreans (or more probably the Korean government, merely) would prefer be the Chinese usage. I encourage you to make it so in the Chinese Wikipedia.
I am aware that many government agencies have taken to using Guangzhou. The Chinese do it because they are the very ones pushing "Guangzhou". The Americans follow suit for diplomatic reasons. Neither one is following prevailing English usage, but attempting to lead it, or aquiescing to such attempt. Nevertheless "Guangzhou" still lacks the name-recognition of "Canton". -- Lonewolf BC 21:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh I'm sorry, let me rephrase, the fact that this is English WP is the reason that Moscow is not named "Москва". At any rate, those examples are not correct for a second reason - Guangzhou is a commonly accepted name in English whereas Moskva and Venezia are not. And the fact that there seems to be disagreements on how to name the city is precisely why there's a guideline to follow. But hey, I'll tell you what, if you can get concensus to move Beijing to "Peking", Mumbai to "Bombay", Kolkata to "Calcutta", etc etc. I'll support the name change here to "Canton". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Cute rephrase, but now it misrepresents Sikandarji's actual argument. Moreover, even if it were not such a misrepresentation in the case of Moscow, that would leave the examples Sikandarji gave in which the native language is written in roman characters. Spare me the straw-man arguments (also the mock-apologies and other irony and sarcasm).
Although "Guangzhou" has achieved some currency in English, but it still lacks the name-recognition of "Canton". There are other cities that are about the same in this respect: Contrary to what you say, Venice/Venezia is an example. In fact, I'd not be surprised if more native English-speakers are aware that "Venezia" is Venice than are aware that "Guangzhou" is Canton. The difference is that Italy is not pushing "Venezia" as the "right" English name for Venice, nor "Milano", "Roma", "Napoli", and so forth as the "right" English names for those Italian cities.
Other cases are other cases, and need to be considered individually. Supposing some of these others to be wrongly titled for an English-language encyclopedia, that is no excuse to have Canton wrongly titled. (The lame form of arguing in which you are implicitly indulging often comes up in AfD debates, where the existence of other articles that ought be deleted is used as an excuse for keeping the one under consideration.) I'm sure you don't really expect me to try to attend to all those other cities first -- that falls in the category of silly suggestions. Please keep to a reasoned consideration of this case. -- Lonewolf BC 21:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

If Lonewolf wants to make his argument that the name used is still Canton, then let him justify that claim. On the other hand, I can easily show that Guangzhou is the name used now in modern publications. New York Times [3][4] LA Times [5]. Washington Post [6], the Christian Science Monitor [7], Time Magazine [8][9], Frommer's [10], Columbia Encyclopedia [11], the US Embassy [12] etc etc. Now, I challenge you to do the opposite, and show that Canton is the more common English name in modern times. If your claims are justified, it shouldn't be so hard to do--Yuje 20:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] guangzhou infobox needs clean up

the existing infobox is a bit mess up. It does not conform to the other info box which I have seen for other Chinese cities. I will attempt to clean it up a bit more, more clarity and simplicity.

--Visik 13:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New box

The new box http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guangzhou&diff=prev&oldid=79803090 is very unattractive. Badagnani 06:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Hi guys - really like the article - when I learn a bit more about Guangzhou I'll try to contribute productively. Just a small point, but I wondered if it might be possible to substitute the first picture in the info box (Pearl river at night) for something a little brighter and with better contrast - this one is a little gloomy and doesn't give a great first impression (although would be fine further down the article). I noticed that there were quite a lot of photos on the Chinese version, but I didn't want to unilaterally change it. If you disagree, no probs :) Have a great day Hongshi 09:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economy stats

News reports yesterday were saying the GDP per capita in Guangzhou had broken $10,000 in 2006, meaning it was "developed" by World Bank standards. This report [13] attributes that figure to the Guangdong Social Sciences Academy. It also says that the 2005 numbers for Guangzhou, Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen were $8,500, $5,457, $7,600 and $7,300, respectively. -- Beland 15:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually the report said that Guangzhou was expected to have broken the $10,000 mark. Maybe we should wait till another report confirms this actually happened? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please, restoring the original name: Canton

This article should be titled Canton. My Candian history prof. tells me that many Westerners and foreigners stil use this name because it is easy for them to pronounce and remember. Furthermore, more and more Guangzhou residents call the city CANTON as well. Personally, I'm proud to be a Cantonese.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fatck (talk • contribs) 01:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Vive le Canton libre! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fatck (talk • contribs) 02:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The Canton Province should be independent from the mainland.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fatck (talk • contribs) 05:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Both common usage and naming convention would support that we keep the name as "Guangzhou". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Please don't delete others' comments. And now that you've added that bit about how "Canton Province should be independent", you've fully revealed your POV motivations.
Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Who deleted my comments? Who did that? To Hong Qi Gong, why not? Quebec is trying to separate from Canada, and this is a great model for Canton Province because the Cantonese language and its great culture are so different from the mainland. This is a similar case as Quebec Independence Movement. At present, Cantonese culture is delincing because Mandarin is eroding in the Great Cantonese District. Also, I don't think every HongKonger loves the communism mainland. Finally, I'm proud to be a Cantonese Canadian.

Fatck (Talk - Contribs) 10:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Check the Talk page's edit history if you want to know who removed your edits. And please read WP:NOT#SOAP - Wikipedia is not a soapbox. You would be better served if you write this stuff on your own blog or on some forums. Finally - 屌那星，廣東獨立咗再返來啦，竹升仔！ Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, Hong Qi Gong, you are the criminal who deleted my comments! Finally - 你個PK乞丐點解吾加入共產黨?

Actually, no, I didn't delete your comments. Like I said, check the edit history, 竹升仔. "你個PK乞丐"? Hahhah what the heck are they inventing new Cantonese slang in Calgary now? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, buddy! My fault. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.79.140.141 (talk • contribs) 2007-02-01 13:03:47.

[edit] Etymology

The first paragraph of the article states :"Canton, which is based on a French language transliteration of the name", while under the heading 'name'is stated that :" "Canton" was the convenient Portuguese romanisation of "Guangdong" Province ". So,is it derived from French or Portuguese? See also the article on 'Guangdong'.

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