Talk:Halifax, Nova Scotia

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Contents 1 Archived Discussion 2 Article needs a name modification 3 Halifax Neighbourhoods Input Needed 4 Population 5 History seems short 6 Should the title not be simply "Halifax, Nova Scotia"? 7 Requested move 7.1 Survey 7.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 7.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 7.2 Discussion 8 Place-name or city?

[edit] Archived Discussion

• Talk:Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) Archive1 to 25 July, 2006 OldCommentator

---OldCommentator 01:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs a name modification

Halifax is a community of the Halifax Regional Municipality . Well it be better if the article be "City of Halifax" or "Community of Halifax" or even "Halifax Area" or something without brackets nor including metropolation not to confuse this area of HRM with the other areas of HRM and HRM itself that have different historys and facts . The heading "Halifax, Nova Scotia" the present legal place for the former city of Halifax area should not have be redirecting the Halifax Regional Municipality page and made the whole article on HRM confusing to people outside Nova Scotia.--Bill 20:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no City of Halifax. There is HRM, and then there is the place formerly known as Halifax. They are two separate places. It has been 10 years since amalgamation and culturally, economically, and administrationally, urban Halifax/Dartmouth/Bedford/County is one unit now. Renaming this will just run us back into the confusion as per the debates on both the HRM and Halifax Former City talk archives. As we have said in the past "it is confusing on wikipedia because it is confusing in real life." WayeMason 00:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Halifax Neighbourhoods Input Needed

Okay.

I am tired of god damn real estate agents defining what the neighbourhoods on Halifax are. I am tired of them trying to say the south end extends to Quinpool to justify higher housing prices.

Historically, there was Halifax Town, with a West, North and South ends. Technically, the West End included Quinpool road, thus the WEST END CHURCH on Quinpool at Chestnut.

Anyway, I am looking for input. Below is a suggested neighbourhood map, trying to use the historic names.... Me personally, it sounds hard ass and cool to live in Fort Massey, which would have been the old south end. I don't know if anyone still calls it Fort Massey. I am totally against the north end being everything north of downtown, that is historically not accurate at all. The North End stopped at Richmond, which was just south of the current Hydrostones down to about Veith Street, where Idea of East used to be.... "Richmond Place' was the building. Also the old naval graving yard (the drydock) was considered to be in Richmond.

Lets talk about where the real neighbourhoods are, lets talk about what the people who live there call them and failing that, what they could/should call them, and lets make a more accurate map.

[[1]] WayeMason 23:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Er, this article is about Halifax, the former city. It is NOT about HRM. I have to agree that its inappropriate given the structure we have LABORIOUSLY and over a long period of time worked out to put HRM stats on this page. We might as well put the 359K population on the Bedford and Dartmouth pages, too... which is just illogical. WayeMason 01:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• I agree 100% --Markhamman

• • The current population stats for "Halifax" are incorrect - they are for the HRM urban core and not the former city.Plasma east 02:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History seems short

No mention of the explosion? --AW 18:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should the title not be simply "Halifax, Nova Scotia"?

It seems to me that the title "Halifax, Nova Scotia" ought belong to this article, rather than being a redirect to the new-fangled "Halifax Regional Municipality". I gather that, despite the administrative amalgamation, the communities involved have not lost their distictiveness, and that "Halifax" is yet understood, locally, to mean Halifax itself -- the area of the former city, proper -- not the new, broader area, encompassing many other communities besides. Certainly this seems to me the natural meaning; communities with a long tradition of being distinct from each other do not ordinarily abandon that tradition in response to a mere administrative act, especially one imposed from higher up. Granted, I don't live nearby, and defer to the opinion of those who do. If it is as I suspect, though, then "Halifax, Nova Scotia" yet means the same area it has meant historically, the administrative dissolution of the "City of Halifax" notwithstanding. If that is so, then this article should be titled "Halifax, Nova Scotia". The title "...(former city)" is cumbersome, and confusing to anyone who does not happen to know beforehand of the details of recent administrative changes in the Halifax area -- which I dare say includes just about any WP user who is not from that region.
-- Lonewolf BC 09:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is a Map of the Halifax Regional Municipality clearly shows "Halifax, Nova Scotia" should belong to the article Halifax (former city), Nova Scotia while the Halifax Regional Municipality should be not be the redirected article that is now . The other communities like Dartmouth, Nova Scotia have articles of thier own . Halifax Regional Municipality is no different than York Region where the towns of Markham, Ontario ,Aurora, Ontario,East Gwillimbury, Ontario are.
-- Markhamman 16:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Holy cats! This is even more straightforward than I thought. The regional municipality is not even a single connurbation. Plainly "Halifax, Nova Scotia" does not normally mean that whole broad area, with its many separate communities. What is the rationale for the resistance (I surmise that there must be resistance) to moving this article to "Halifax, Nova Scotia"?
-- Lonewolf BC 19:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Because the city of Halifax doesn't exist anymore. It'd make about as much sense as having Toronto send you to Metro Toronto. York Region shouldn't be compared to the HRM, YR is made up of a bunch of towns that, as far as I can tell, still have some separate bureaucracies and services. HRM isn't some "newfangled" thing, it's been around for 10 years, and when it was created, it meant the consolidation of everything (just consider regional municipalities to be basically synonymous with cities). Dartmouth is now a part of Halifax. (i.e., Dartmouth doesn't have a higher legal status than say, Clayton Park, because at this point, they're all just names). We've had endless discussions on this, don't just go and redirect the thing like that without a full understanding of the situation. Besides, Halifax Regional Municipality is a much more detailed article - the former city article is essentially just a list of neighbourhoods that once made up the City of Halifax. The capitol of Nova Scotia can't be Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city), because the former city doesn't exist anymore! Sprocket 23:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The city of Halifax no longer exists? Really? What happened? Did a giant meteor hit it, and leave a huge crater?
What you mean (or at least what you should mean, keeping needful distinctions straight) is that the City of Halifax no longer exists, as a corporate entity. The physical city of Halifax is just as much there as it has been since the 18th century. It is this physical (and social) city that people mean when they say "Halifax, Nova Scotia". I dare say that no one (apart, perhaps, from some bureaucrats and a few a few people with idiosyncratic ideas about geographic nomenclature) means the regional municipality, with all of its many historic settlements having identities of their own, and the open spaces in between. The world at large is scarcely even aware of this administrative change; the people living in the vicinity (by what I've read in WP, and as anyone would expect) pay it no mind as regards what they mean by "Halifax". All that has happened is that Halifax has been dis-incorporated as a separate local government, and merged into a larger unit. So it is now an unincorporated city instead of an incorporated one. It is no less distinct, for that. Most to the point, it is no less what most people mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia", and that is the decisive fact, not the administrative divisions and units currently in effect.
Any issues of the content and relative quality of the articles are easily remedied. So they count for nought.
This is silly. Cities exist or not by virture of their physical presence, firstly, and secondarily as social entities. Administrative units may or may not (not, in this case) be congruent with physical and social reality, but that does not matter to whether a city (or smaller settlement) exists. The provincial government made an end of the City, only. It has no power to do away with the city, likewise.
-- Lonewolf BC 02:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's one trouble we run into, though: Having Halifax Halifax, Nova Scotia redirect to Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) means that, say, 2014 Commonwealth Games now has us believe that the city of Halifax is bidding on the Commonwealth Games, rather than the HRM, which is what's actually true.

These days, Halifax, Dartmouth, and the whole darn region is legally one city; it wouldn't make sense to have a Wikipedia article based on former boundaries. Sprocket 08:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

No they are not. They, together with a broad, non-urban surrounding area are legally one "regional municipality", within which are a great number of unincorporated communities of various sizes, distinct from each other, including Halifax. Again, the decisive fact is what people mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia", and what they mean is the city of Halifax. Whether current administrative boundaries conform to that meaning is neither here nor there, any more than it is for any other unincorporated settlement within some broader area of local governance.
-- Lonewolf BC 18:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

A simple piped link solves the "problem" you raise where some particular use really means the regional municipality, as in the instance you chose in making the point -- as you knew perfectly well, whereas it was you who saw to that (diff), over a year ago.
-- Lonewolf BC 18:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, when I say "Halifax", I mean the whole region. When I lived in Dartmouth, I always said I lived in Halifax. If I was were to say Dartmouth I might as well have said Manor Park, Nova Scotia. The "Halifax" population number in the census, for example, is the population of the whole regional municipality, not just for the area within boundaries that haven't had any bearing since 1996. Since I can see this is (puzzlingly) a controversial issue, can I suggest we have a Wikipedia:Third opinion done to avoid the constant reverting? Sprocket 21:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Well, that's you. The question is, what does the English-speaking world at large mean by "Halifax, Nova Scotia", which is surely not the broad and almost wholly non-urban area shown by that map of the regional municipality. One look at that and I'll warrant that the vast majority of people will say that they mean the actual city.
I note that you have gotten into this same disagreement with a number of people. That should tell you something. So in a sense this matter has already been put to third parties, and the consensus has been that "Halifax, Nova Scotia" ordinarily means the (physical) city, not the (administrative) region, and should redirect accordingly. However, if you want to put this to a "Request for comment", that is fine with me.
-- Lonewolf BC 22:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
PS: Note the flaw, too, in your example of Dartmouth. I would not be much surprised if many people in and around Halifax use "Halifax" to mean "greater Halifax", including Dartmouth and the rest of the Halifax connurbation. This is not at all the same thing as meaning the area of the regional municipality, of which that connurbation is only a very small part.
-- Lonewolf BC 22:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Can the article Halifax, Nova Scotia (former city) should be changed to Halifax, Nova Scotia ? Or an act of congress is needed to do it . Whoever started in the first place should of researched the title before even writing it. The city yes does not exist as a city but the area is still considered "Halifax Nova Scotia" the same goes with Dartmouth and Bedford by the very government who created the Halifax Regional Municipality in the first place --D052

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Place-name or city?

Merriam-Webster Online defines a city as:

1 a : an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village b : an incorporated British town usually of major size or importance having the status of an episcopal see c capitalized (1) : the financial district of London (2) : the influential financial interests of the British economy d : a usually large or important municipality in the United States governed under a charter granted by the state e : an incorporated municipal unit of the highest class in Canada

Lets study this...

a - Halifax is now a contiguous conurbation stretching from out towards Chebucto head, west to Timberlea, and up the harbour toward Bedford. The whole metro Halifax conurbation is a city, but the old ci ty of Halifax has been absorbed into this larger unit b - Halifax is not incorporated c - it is not the city of London! :) d - is not under a charter (its under two or three, Halifax Mainland and Halifax peninsula, and maybe the Capital district) e - again, it is not incorporated.

Halifax is not a city. It is bad wiki to say Halifax, inside of the old boundaries, is a city. You could create a new article called Halifax Urban Area or Urban Halifax, Nova Scotia, or something, and talk about that, I suppose.

As an aside - my personal feeling is that the Chebucto area (the former mainland) is going to strengthen in identity, and Halifax will become just the peninsula, with it's North, South and West ends of Halifax. But thats not fully common usage yet... WayeMason 10:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Halifax is "an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village". In a word, it is a city. It makes no difference that the city is bigger now than formerly, nor that its exact bounds are arguable. There is little purpose in consulting a dictionary over such a commonly understood word as "city", and even less in noting that Halifax does not meet any of its more particular definitions. It meets the common definition, and that is both obvious and enough. -- Lonewolf BC 19:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The former city of Halifax is not "an inhabited place of greater size, population or importance than a town or village." The entire urban area of HRM is that, you see? Why would you maintain that a small part of the inside of the contiguous urban area is still a "city" when there is no demographic, geographic or legal reason to do so? Again, time marches on. Nobody talks about the "Town of Willowdale" which was long ago subsumed by North York, it's now just the neighbourhood of Willowdale. Nobody talks about the "Town of Richmond" which was long ago absorbed by Halifax. Nobody talks about "Williamsberg" they just talk about Brooklyn. Things change. This changed. There is no city of Halifax. Please be mindful of the three changes rule. You are running out of opportunities to change this back. Also please don't edit the title to my comments, thats silly. WayeMason 19:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

What is silly is for you to insist that Halifax is a "former city", when it is a current city by the common understanding of what is a city.
"Why would you maintain that a small part ... legal reason to do so?" You are begging the question.
"Again, time marches on. ... Things change. This changed. There is no city of Halifax." Things change, but this did not. Again, you are begging the question. There is still a city of Halifax, albeit that there is no City of Halifax. Because of the lack of a corresponding municipal government, and of its physical growth, Halifax's boundaries are arguable, as said, but that does not mean it has ceased to be. -- Lonewolf BC 19:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

So, in an effort to have some good will, would you be satisfied if we had a Halifax, Nova Scotia article about the former city, and a Halifax Urban Area article? My issue here, again, is that there is an urban area of Halifax a city, that is a continuous area all around the harbour, and then there is a community of Halifax, and the boarders are not the same. Do you even live in Halifax? Are you familiar with the common uses as have emerged since amalgamation? If I called all the city councilors in and polled them, or called city planning and asked them, would you accept the answer if they disagreed with you? What kind of research and/or footnotable references can we find to help solve this issue? WayeMason 22:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Too many questions, too rhetorical, and too little to the point. Current information [2] shows Halifax to be both readily distinguishable, geographically, and actually distinguished as a "Metropolitan Area", bureaucratically, -- in short, a city. HRM's "Western Region" of its "Urban Core" equates nicely, in not perfectly, likewise recognising the ongoing existence of this identifiable city. Write whatever other articles you wish and can get to pass muster, but please stop putting it about that Halifax is a "former city". -- Lonewolf BC 15:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The website you use as a reference states that Halifax status is that of a metropolitan area, not a city. Your own reference agrees with my point. If you change your tone, act with some good faith, and focus on determining the facts I am sure we can get through this to the objective facts. WayeMason 18:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it quite disagrees with your point. You are confusing being a city, in physical fact, with being a City, as a legal entity. A city, by any other name is still a city; the reason that Halifax is a recognized "Metropolitan Area" is that it is a city in physical fact -- and likewise for Dartmouth, separately so recognized.
By the way, I don't much care for your tone, either, and care even less for your accusations of bad faith. Tone is somewhat subjective, of course, and prone to misinterpretation, making a degree of charity and tolerance wise, in that regard. Your accusation, on the other hand, has been made altogether too explicit. No more, please. -- Lonewolf BC 19:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You, sir, started the personal attacks, as the record above clearly shows. You wrote Write whatever other articles you wish and can get to pass muster How can a statement like this be considered good faith? Maybe you will reconsider this statement and apologize?

Anyway, back to the issue.

We continue to circle this, in terms of your interpretation of facts and phrases verses mine. Obviously we are not going to agree on the issue. I have proposed that we find additional information that we will agree to abide by or agree to a framework to resolve our disagreement. I am not going to agree with you, unless you bring new information, I just cannot agree to your view as I don't think the facts support it. So we need to find a way that we can bring in more information or agree on a definitive source. For example, I could go and speak to Andy Fullmer at HRM planning, Frank Polarmo at Dal Cities and Environment Unit, and maybe the CAO of HRM. Or maybe the head of Heritage and ask them their opinions. Or we could ask some English professors. But we clearly need to find more sources here in order to move toward a resolution.

Anyway, I cannot talk about this any more tonight as I have to go to bed. Tomorrow I will be participating as a guest panelist on the CBC Radio town hall about the future of the city, which as far as the good people at CBC and 9 other guests (city planners, some politicians, other culture and planning activists) are concerned is all of HRM on this show. Listen in if you want, its on from 6:00-8:30 AST at this link. I am on at 8:00ish WayeMason 01:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

With regard to the "personal attacks" you suppose that I started, one often hears of ironic remarks getting misconstrued, in mediums such as this, when a reader takes them literally, but I believe this is the first instance I've met in which a remark has been misconstrued by failure to take it literally. I'm not sure just how you have managed to interpret my "Write whatever other articles..." as an attack on you or an act of bad faith, but it was neither. Any such aspect has been read into it by you. It really means what the very words say, and I wrote it with reference to your suggestion of having a "Halifax Urban Area" article.
No authority can trump the physical facts on the ground, which unsurprisingly show that the city of Halifax is still there, but politicians and officials connected with HRM are particularly liable to have an interest in promoting some uncommon notion of what Halifax is or is not. -- Lonewolf BC 19:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

So, if the politicans, planners, etc disagree with you they have are biased against the facts. Again, your assertions are being challenged, I have proposed several frameworks so we can seek more data and move forward on this issue. I will get emails from Service Nova Scotia Municipal Relations, HRM Planning, HRM Politicans, area MLAs, whatever. How about the opinion of the head of Urban Planning at the regions biggest University. WayeMason 01:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, today for 2 hours on the CBC morning show they talked about the future of our city, Halifax. Journalists, planners, an activist, an architect, a novelist, a Festival promoter (me) all talked as well as members of the audience. When we were speaking about the city, we were talking about HRM. Some people were talking about issues specific to neighborhoods in Dartmouth, Bedford, inside of the discussion about our city. No one was talking about "just the old city area" they were talking about 'the city' meaning all of it, all of urban Halifax. I am more convinced than ever that the common or popular usage in media and everyday use is to call HRM Halifax, and the city, interchangeably. The discussion is archived on the CBC Nova Scotia website if anyone wants to listen. I find this whole debate an increasingly depressing waste of time. WayeMason 01:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

"So, if the politicans, planners, etc disagree..."
No, that's not what I said. I said that official pronouncements or other "expert" opinions do not trump physical facts and the common understanding of what is a city -- and are of even less value when they are liable to be biased, as is the case with politicians and officials of the regional municipality, in relation to the question at hand. -- Lonewolf BC 02:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

So your solution is for us to come to an good faith agreement is? Or are you just *right* and I am supposed to agree with you now? WayeMason 13:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

"...an incorporated municipality, usually governed by a mayor and a board of aldermen or councilmen." (city, dictionary.com)

If anything, this article should be a subsection of Halifax Regional Municipality (which, in turn, should be renamed to Halifax, Nova Scotia). When I say "Halifax", I'm talking about the peninsula, Dartmouth, Bedford, and the whole area. I use to argue over this subject a lot, I got tired of it, but it seems ridiculous to have two articles on basically the same subject. As of 1996, "Halifax" is not just the peninsula, it is the entire Halifax county. I'm gonna have to side with Wayemason on this one. Sprocket 00:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)