Talk:Hildegard of Bingen

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Contents 1 canonized ? 2 additions 3 wikiquote-could you please add a link, I dunno how to do that 4 plagiarized? 5 Alternative alphabet? 6 number of compositions 7 ? 8 Saints infobox 9 Saints rating

[edit] canonized ?

Brittanica insists that Hildegard was not canonized, but she definitely appears in the German regional calendar as "Heilige" (saint) and the Mass is celebrated to Saint Hildegard of Bingen. Was there a confirmation of cultus at some point after the Brittanica was published? Or is Brittanica wrong? Mpolo 12:42, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

If you mean "Encyclopaedia Britannica," which edition?Jclerman 22:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

she was never canonized, but is called "Saint Hildegard" in parts of Germany regardless. dab (ᛏ) 07:02, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Correct! She is not considered a "saint" by the Catholic Church. Was never canonized. See edits. Her removal from "saints" list would be accurate. 76.166.123.129 03:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] additions

Many much needed additions, thank you Cwphd97. Stbalbach 17:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] wikiquote-could you please add a link, I dunno how to do that

Hi, could anyone please add quotation from wikiquote in the way it should be done properly? I don't know how to add a link like this. It is here: [1]

"Glance at the sun.
See the moon and the stars.
Gaze at the beauty of the earth's greenings.
Now,
Think."

I like it very much:) Thanks!

unfortunately, there is no information as to the poem's source, or the translator. dab (ᛏ) 20:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] plagiarized?

Much of this article (for example the paragraph beginning "The 12th century was also the time of schisms and religious foment") exactly matches http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/hildegarde.html. Who's copying whom? 134.173.80.96 21:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right. User:Cwphd97 added it in a long time ago, and it was never caught. I've removed the copyrighted text now. It's really too bad that people insert copyrighted stuff, since a lot of people had spent time and energy copyediting it, etc. Thanks for pointing it out. Mak (talk) 23:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative alphabet?

Well, what is it? Evertype 18:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] number of compositions

This section of the article could use some clarification. Right now it isn't very NPOV, and sounds like a fansite.

"Approximately eighty compositions survive, which is a far larger repertoire than almost any other medieval composer."

Unfortunately I can't seem to find any specific information right now.

RichMac 05:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you please clarify? She is an extremely important composer. What exactly do you see as POV about the section? The section that you quote seems like a statement of fact to me, not in any way POV. The reason it's approximate is that she's medieval, which means that there is sometimes a question of attribution, and it's also possible that more works will be uncovered in a library somewhere. When I get home and can use my Grove I'll try to give it an inline cite. Mak (talk) 13:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing against her significance, what gets me is the wording in the sentence. Particularly the second half. 'far larger than almost' it feels like it's stretching to be gratifying when it needn't be. I've reworded it, I think it sounds a little better now. RichMac 01:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit]  ?

Does anyone know anything about Volmar, Hildegard's secretary in later life? I can't find out ANYTHING about him! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sedonaarizona (talk • contribs).

[edit] Saints infobox

The "Saints" infobox has been added to the page of this article primarily because it is currently standard form to add a infobox to all the biography articles in wikipedia. There are a number of such infoboxes available for people in various fields. Because Hildegarde is venerated in both the Anglican Communion and the Roman Catholic Church, and possibly others, it seems to me that that infobox might be the most appropriate one to use here. Also, because of the marked differences in the requirements to be called a "saint" in the various Christian churches, with the comparatively lower "thresholds" in many of the Protestant churches, it seems to me to be fairer to try to be as non-POV as possible and include all those people who have been somehow formally singled out by any Christian faith. The Roman Catholics are so far as I can tell the only faith to have grades of holiness, although almost all their "venerable" people might well qualify as "saints" in other faiths. I hope that this somewhat muddled explanation of the inclusion of the infobox is acceptable. If not, please voice any concerns or comments below. John Carter 14:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not the "composer" infobox? I know her primarily as a composer. What about the "writer" infobox? In many fields she is primarily known as an author. How about politician? She wrote to various powerful people in her time, and probably swayed their opinion. Just choosing which type of infobox to use points out why I think infoboxes are so problematic - they are redundant to the lede paragraph (yes, it's an encyclopedia and I don't think it's too much to ask for people to be asked to read a whole paragraph on the person they want to learn about) and that they take out any and all nuance. "Boxing" people is a terrible idea. At least with categories you can include all that are applicable. For infoboxes, you have to choose what goes in each field, with no explanation or nuance. This is not a problem for things which are easily taxonomised (probably a made-up word), such as plants, but I think it's a terrible idea for people. There is no "rule" policy or guideline that says that all biographies must have an infobox, except that of one or two specific projects, which I don't believe really get to dictate article content. If I get the people in the "composers" project to say "no infoboxes for people" do they get to trump every editor who disagrees with them simply because they've made up a policy? The bottom line is, infoboxes are a terrible idea for people, and I can't help what people do on all the other biographies on Wikipdia, but I can remind people why they're terrible on the articles I watch when they're added (generally by people who know nothing about the subject, and get things wrong). Mak (talk) 15:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the box you removed was not placed there by me, and that this is now the second time I believe that you have personally removed it. The majority of the infoboxes list the birth and death dates and whatever other relevant data is appropriate, and evidently the editors of the Biography project whose work I believe we are following disagreed with you when they instituted them. If you have objections to the placement of these biography infoboxes, I would have no objections whatsoever to your creating a discussion on the subject in the appropriate area. The fact that some individuals know Hildegarde primarily as a composer is relevant. However, it is also possible that somewhere out there someone might know Adolf Hitler primarily as a architectural draftsman. The fact that you personally think they are a bad idea, and are willing to revert the work of others, is not in and of itself just cause; consensus is required. Frankly, you aren't going to find consensus by removing the infobox from one article. I personally agree that at least some of the infoboxes for people are at best incomplete. I would have no idea which infobox to put on John Buchan, 1st Baron Tweedsmuir, for example, and would probably personally favor the creation of a combination infobox in such instances. The same would probably hold for this person as well. However, taking such unilateral action as you have done seemingly against the existing consensus of the community is a clear violation of the spirit of wikipedia. There probably is a good place for the discussion of such matters, probably at the biography project. However, reverting one article repeatedly because you disagree with something is not the appropriate response here. If any other project were to seek to add the relevant data from their infoboxes, if such were possible, clearly I would have no objections. However, complete and unilateral removal of infoboxes is probably not the best way to resolve the situation. John Carter 15:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

As a compromise, I have adding a "non-taxonomical" infobox ... it is simply the biography infobox from the template "Infobox Biography." Later, if a more specific infobox is desired, it can be changed, but there is one on the page for now. -- Pastordavid 21:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saints rating

I've said this elsewhere, but I'll reiterate it here:

"Top" priority in Bio is limited to 200 people, which it is doubtful would include Hildegard. However, in my changing her to "Top" under the Saints project, I did so because the guidelines state (for Top level Saints): "Subject is a 'core' or 'key' topic for Saints, or is generally notable to people other than students of Saints." (emphasis added) By these criteria, Hildegard of Bingen cleary falls under the "Top" category in the Saints project. Outside of Hagiography, she is much better known, for example, than Anthony of Padua or Columba. She is well known in the Linguistics and Music communities. The Jade Knight 03:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the key words which are probably omitted in the quote you made above would change the phrase to or is generally notable to people other than students of Saints as saints (emphasis added). I acknowledge up front that Hildegarde is notable for her contributions to linguistics and music. Her contributions as a Christian religious figure/saint, however, are not quite so obvious, and her importance to the Saints project, which is what the banner relates to, I believe takes her out of top importance on that basis. I believe Columba is included in the top importance field because of his status as a core biography. Please see the Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Core biographies#Criteria section for their definition of how someone qualifies as a "top" importance article to their project. I believe that it would be difficult to make the case that Hildegarde qualifies as top to their project on that basis. Granted, the same could be said for Columba, were it not for the fact that he is a, if not the, pivotal figure in the idea of How The Irish Saved Civilization, even if he isn't mentioned specifically in that article yet. However, I acknowledge the point that Hildegarde is notable to other projects, and have added the banners of the Catholicism, Composers, Languages, and Writing Systems projects to the page as well, so that the members of those projects, who are much more informed on her contributions in those fields, will hopefully add and/or monitor the content with which they are most familiar to the article. I believe that it would be more than presumptuous for the comparatively small and limited focus Saints projects to take responsibility for content in fields as broadly disparate as those. I hope that this attempt at compromise proves acceptable. Regarding Anthony of Padua, I agree that he probably doesn't qualify in that category either, and have said as much here. It is my hope that the project soon attempts a more systemic analysis of what qualifies an article as being of top-importance. Also, I have unofficially heard that there may now be a more objective way of determining general "importance" in development, based on number of links to other articles, etc. Clearly, I think the project will have to seriously consider abiding by whatever conclusions are reached there if and when that system is finalized. John Carter 14:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you found that quote you're using, but it isn't at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Saints/Assessment#Importance_scale. The sentence there describing "top" priority Saints, which I have quoted, ends in a period, not in "as saints." I'm not going to press the issue that she be assessed higher if consensus is against it, but as the guideline is currently phrased, she deserves "Top" priority within the Saints project. The Jade Knight 22:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The quote I used comes was original, as I thought it was assumed that any individual project can really only rank any article relative to its importance to that particular subject. I believe that the original quote you originally used was "borrowed", probably without adjustment, from the original Version 1.0 Assessments, and that few if any projects have adjusted the phrasing as they would rationally have to to reflect their own interests. Also, you have yet to establish explicitly why your knowing her as a composer (leaving alone the rarely-used writing system she set up) explicitly qualifes her as "top" importance. I would note that her compositions, as I remember, were only recently "rediscovered" and that, on that basis, they may at some point in the future fade into comparative obscurity once again, which would dramatically lower her importance were that to happen. Also, were we, or any other project, to rank any articles we deal with as being of "top" importance based on their importance beyond the project, I think that you would agree that Johann Sebastian Bach, Albrecht Dürer, Leonhard Euler, Søren Kierkegaard, Martin Luther King, Jr. (all core biographies) as well as several other individuals, probably including John Donne, Christina Rossetti, Dag Hammarskjöld, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, George Frideric Handel, the Romanov saints, Victor Hugo, Sun Yat-Sen, John F. Kennedy, and any number of other people who are recognized as saints by one or another church who achieved recognition for reasons not clearly and directly related to their religious conduct were to be articles that we would be, in effect, required to rank as of great importance within our own project, even if their contributions in our area were minimal, that we would, in effect, both have the number of "top" importance articles rapidly escalate to an ungovernable size and lose any control whatever over our own project, as we would then be governed by forces outside the project itself. Lastly, as we do not yet possess the importance rankings from the other projects whose scope she falls under, we would be making an assumption based upon data that has not yet been collected, which would probably qualify as original research. As is stated on the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Work via Wikiprojects#Bot-assisted article selection page, there is currently a bot in development which may rank articles based on their importance (based on number of links) within wikipedia, the number of hits the article receives, and the number of pages the subject has in foreign language wikipedias. If and when that bot is developed and is enacted, then I as a member of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team will certainly try to encourage all projects, including the Saints project, to take that into account. Also, as Version 1.0 now has its own banner, I think it will be a simple matter to ensure that all "top" importance articles as determined by Version 1.0 will have that ranking displayed on that banner, which would probably be the top on any given page. As stated, however, the article has not yet been ranked for importance by the other banners recently applied to it, nor has the proposed bot yet been created. Also, as noted, you have not yet explicitly indicated that her importance as a composer, taken with her importance to "religious life" (our project's basic scope) would inherently make her top importance to the project. I would think that she would probably have to qualify as at least "high" importance to Composers (or some other music project) for us to combine the importances to make her "top". Without that required info, we would be making a decision based on information we don't yet have, which strikes me as being completely against the spirit of wikipedia. Sorry for rambling on so long, by the way. John Carter 17:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Talking of which, Albrecht Durer is a Lutheran saint (along with Cranach and Matthias Grunwald), but has rightly been given a "low" priority by the Lutheranism project and a "mid" one by the Saints project, whilst equally rightly he is top priority for the Germany and Visual Arts projects. No complaints on that talk page, or from me as writer of most of the current form of the article. Johnbod 23:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not particularly insistant that she be given "top" priority. But if she isn't, the stated guideline clearly needs to be rephrased. I, personally, can provide no hard and fast statistics for her fame (other than that a Google search provides nearly 300,000 hits, followed by nearly another million for "Hildegard von Bingen"), but she is not at all obscure in Medieval Music or Linguistics, and she is iconic among conlangers. The other day, while walking through the Humanities building of my local university, I chanced to hear some students studying about her. It is unlikely that they were students of music or hagiography (though quite possible that they were studying the Humanities or Linguistics). This is anecdotal, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. Garmarna, a fairly well-known Swedish rock band, has released an entire CD (and went on tour extensively) covering music written by Hildegard of Bingen (not to mention the many classical recordings which exist). Again, I'm not saying that she needs to be "top" priority, but IMO she is very well-known in a variety of fields—it is possible (though I find this hard to believe) that she is better-known in Music and Linguistics than she is in Hagiography! The Jade Knight 19:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I believe that probably is the case, as her impact on religion seems to me to be rather limited. I am an old student of church history, by the way, and can scarcely remember encountering her name at all in that context. Also, I believe elsewhere on the assessment page it states that any member of the Saints Project is free to make assessments, indicating by omission that non-members of the project should not do so. I think that may have been so that such discussions as these can take place centrally and internally, probably on the project pages, not on the individual article talk pages. Certainly, if and when we get the rankings from the other projects (Version 1.0 will shortly be trying to "encourage" all the projects to complete their assessments) we will then have a bit more data to work with particularly regarding the music and linguistics rankings with which to operate with. Also, I'm fairly sure that 1.0 will be seeking additional articles for the various release versions, and any article with a top or high importance ranking from any major project (some of them are rather limited scope which might disqualify them, Wikipedia:WikiProject The Smashing Pumpkins for instance) will very likely be at least considered for inclusion in them. I can't say for certain when that will happen, but I am fairly sure announcements will be made everywhere to let people know. And I am leaving a message on the WikiProject Council talk page to tell all the other project members there that this discrepancy exists on at least some of the project pages, and that they might like to correct it to avoid any complications. John Carter 14:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)