Talk:History of the Netherlands

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History of the Netherlands is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article Milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

Article Milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 19, 2004	Refreshing of brilliant prose	Kept
October 15, 2006	Featured article review	Demoted
Current Status: Former featured article

WikiProject Echo has identified History of the Netherlands as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Dutch language Wikipedia.

This page has been selected for Version 0.5 and the release version of Wikipedia. It has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale. It is in the category History.

[edit] Old comments

knap werk! - Mathijs
Dank je. - Andre Engels
Yes, very impressive! --LMS
You should work for the CIA. :-D (The entire history they collected was about 5 lines long) --KQ
I have amended the Belgian revolution a bit. You made it sound like the Flemings were forced into independence and though pro-French elements were responsible for igniting the revolt, the core sentiments among both Flemings and Walloons were more as I described IMHO. -- [[User:Scipius]
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I added a little known fact about WWI and the German Army taking a short cut over a small bit of Lands of the Netherlands, maybe someone can add to this. -- Golf

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I always learned in school that there was no actual relation between the old Frisians (in Roman times), and the later ones? The new frisians took up the name of the region. (the remark about "still do")

I think this section is not exactly accurate.

The history of this small country starts with its first inhabitants, hunters that lived during the last ice age thousands of years ago. Notable remains of that period include the monumental Hunebeds in the province Drenthe.

It makes it seem as if the hunebeds were put up by hunters during the last ice age, 8,000 BCE or so. According to a random google they were built between 3400 and 3200 BCE. That's quite a huge distance in time. According to the same source the people who put up these monuments were early farmers. It's like confusing ancient egypt with the reign of Charlemaine.. Martijn faassen 23:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Intro expansion request

I'd like to put this article on the main page, but the introduction could use some beefing up. Also, someone else noted that the painting (the Nightwatch) seems a bit arbitrary, and that a better painting (perhaps a painting of a historical event described in the article) would be better. →Raul654 00:56, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

Done. It think this nicely combines two erae in Dutch history. Junes 18:29, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not completely living up to standards now

Although this article is pretty good, and may have been good enough to be featured on Wikipedia in the past, I don't think it's living up to Wikipedia's current standards for featured articles. I mean, I have just added quite a considerable amount of additions and corrections, and I still feel like there's lots missing/wrong. For instance: the introduction is really odd, there is nothing about peoples coming in before the Romans (Batafs, Westgoths, the like), the Holy Roman Empire bit is rather short considering the timespan (+- 500-1500!) and important developments, there is next to nothing on the Eighty Years' War (yes, I know there's an article but there should be something in the main article as well), nothing about cultural life in the Golden Age (science, arts), oh and that part should probably be sectioned (subdivided, but not divided!) in Eighty Years' War and Golden Age. There is very little contemporary history and most of it is about institutions and the like (where are 'depillarization', 60's-70's cultural changes, immigration?), the balance is odd at times (quite a lot about Indonesia compared to the rest), the language is rather poor sometimes and I agree with some comments that have been made about the images - there should probably be a different painting at the top (not sure what, though), and I feel there should be an image of William of Orange (Greatest Dutchman, after all ;) ). Don't worry, there's a lot that I like about the article (otherwise I wouldn't work on it), and hey, if we all work together we can give this article the smothering love that it needs :D. Junes 18:50, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so I've corrected some of these shortcomings, specifically: added some Germanic & Roman history, expanded the Eighty Years' War bit, added contemporary history, improved on the language (but it still has sections that are a bit odd), and I've changed the top image. Still to be done: expand Holy Roman Empire, some more about science, arts, intellectualism during the Golden Age, insert an image of William of Orange, adding good (and English!) references. What's also badly needed: some trimming, and maybe creating new articles, because the balance is horrible at the moment. But see also the next subject below. Junes 18:26, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Partition

Although I very much like your additions, Thames, because they are well-written and important, a problem is becoming apparent. Some sections have grown so much that the balance is completely gone. Of course, the Golden Age is very important in the history of the Netherlands, and that should merit a longer section, but now it's about 6 times longer than the Holy Roman Empire section. The 20th century is also very long in comparison to the rest. Of course, we could just expand the other sections greatly, but that would mean the article could no longer serve as an introductory text. So it's probably best to make some new articles or merge the information into other existing articles. There a two useful articles here: Dutch Golden Age and Eighty Years' War. The first is a thorough article on the cultural and social history of the Golden Age, but doesn't concern politics. The second is not so thorough, and needs improvement. I think some of mine and your additions could perfectly amend that article. Also, a third article would be very useful, something like History of the Dutch Golden Age, which focuses mainly on political events. However, that would be a lot of work and I'm not ready to write it now. But I'd like to hear your views on it before I merge the History and the Eighty Years' War. What I still miss by the way, and for which there would be plenty of room to expand on in the war article, is some of the more selfish reasons for the revolt: privileges that were taken away, more bureaucratic governing instead of by nobility. As for the 20th century, there's probably enough now to merit a seperate article, and I will as soon as I get to it. Junes 18:27, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have now partitioned the article, moving the causes for the Eighty Years' War to that article. I have also made a new article for the History of the Netherlands: modern history (1900-present), and I have considerably shortened the 20th century section of the present article (but I may shorten it some more). I'm not so sure about the names of the new entries, it all seems very conflicting and arbitrary. Junes 22:56, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Franks and Frisians

This is the first time I've posted a comment on Wikipedia, so forgive me if I'm doing it wrong in some way.

I enjoyed this history (and others here on similar topics). It would be great if it could explore in more depth the early origins of the Dutch as a people. Who are the Dutch exactly? Not in terms of legend or national identity (e.g. Batavians) but in purely historical terms. The current article deals with this but only for a few lines.

I think English-speakers who are interested in the history of this nation would like to know more about its early relationship between Anglo-Saxon lands. Apparently there were strong ties between SE England and the Frisians. The Dutch were christianised by Anglo-Saxons whose language was apparently intelligible. (Is that correct?) Why does England have so much written in Old English, but in Old Dutch there is virtually nothing?

The medieval Flemish and Dutch (many of them anyway) are presumably the inheritors of the Franks. Dutch essentially developed from Old Low Franconian. The Franks were centered in Flanders, but extended into the southern Netherlands. We read about the Frisians inhabiting the area north of the two rivers and having a large trading influence over the surrounding areas. In 900 most of the Netherlands is still Frisian, all the way down to the main rivers; by 1300 we're looking at a country that has become largely Frankish and is on the verge of world empire. By the time of the Golden Age we see a Holland that is made up of these magnificent prosperous cities - Amsterdam, Leiden, Rotterdam, Haarlem, etc. - but they obviously didn't just pop up out of nowhere.

So what happened between around 900 and 1300 to change the country from being primarily Frisian speaking to being primarily Frankish speaking? From terp-dwelling to Golden Age? From having no written records in Dutch to producing a Vermeer? Was it a slow migration north? Or did Franks create Frankish towns and cities that were surrounded by Frisians? Did the Frisians become culturally and linguistically "Frankicised" for social or economic reasons? Did Vikings or Charlemagne have anything to do with it? What was the dynamic here? Isn't this transition from Frisian to Frankish a really important part of Dutch history? If not, why not? I would love to read more about it. We read much about the Frankish conquest of France, but little about the expansion northwards.

I am also interested in other 5th to 13th century aspects. English sources have much to say about early medieval society in France, England and Germany, but so little about the Netherlands. - the transition from busy Roman outpost to sparsely populated Frisian empire - the Christianisation of the Netherlands and the role of Irish and Anglo-Saxon missionaries - the role played by the Dutch in the Crusades and the church - the history of the language itself

If this leads anywhere thanks! (Alex)

I have moved your comments here, at the bottom, as is the custom (don't worry about it). These are some interesting questions you raise here and you're right that they're not apropriately answered in the article. Certainly the medieval section is rather poor at the moment, it should be expanded. However I'm afraid I don't think it can be as in depth as you sketch it here, well not in the main article that is. If there's enough material about these topics eventually there could be other articles about them. Maybe I'll add some more text (I've worked on the text in a piecemeal manner, but have lost interest a bit). But of course you can add to it as well, if you'd like! Just a word of warning: it's not true that it was all Frisians north of the rivers. The inhabitants of the Netherlands in those days were of a lot of different tribes, as is mentioned in the article. There were Saxons in the east, for example. Junes 22:12, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- The people who settled in the 12th and 13th century in Holland were not Franks. These were Western Germanic settlers from Flanders and Utrecht. They spoke Lower German. A 'language' with huge dialect differences, spoken in the entire Netherlands, Northern Germany, Northern Poland and Kaliningradskaya. The dialects fluently changed from area to area. The people in Gelre spoke a language which corresponds half to modern German and half to modern Dutch. --Daanschr 22:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copy-editing & type of spelling

Thanks by the way Alex, for your copy-editing. There were quite a bit of errors in the article because it wasn't written by native speakers. I saw you changed some American spelling to British spelling. I think that's probably a good idea (the Wikipedia policy is to use consistent spelling, and to make the choice depending who is most likely to read it. Because of the proximity of the UK to the Netherlands, British spelling would be best.) Junes 22:28, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Colonial History

It would be nice to have a detailed section on the colonial history of the netherlands, how it came about, which countries etc.

I agree, this would also make the mentioning of decolonisation of Indonesia in the post WWII section less awkward.--Arnoutf 23:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It would also be fair to write something on slave's trade.

[edit] Modern? Who isn't?

The following may seem like a trite remark, but this is about a deep-rooted misconception and even an insult. The article says "The Netherlands is now a modern, industrialised nation". Sounds fine, but it suggests there are non-modern countries. Can anyone think of a nation that is not now a modern nation? And would they then dare tell this to an inhabitant of that country in their face? If a nation exists now, it's by definition a modern nation, right? Or does it really mean western and are non-western countries, ehm ... backward or something? Sorry for being so dutch :) DirkvdM July 3, 2005 08:03 (UTC)

[edit] Help

Hello, how could I copy the schematic about the history of the Low Countries, I´m translating this article into the Spanish Wikipedia. Thanks. Delp. Sorry, i cant sign because im not registered here.

[edit] Armada link

I put this in here and corresponing material in the Armada article as it is very easy for nations to ignore other people's contribution to and experience of history (even to fall into the trap of believing their own nation's propaganda). My aim is to draw attention to the wider pattern which clearly exists, though my knowledge is too narrow, for the reason given, for me to be competent to achieve this fully. Maybe there is an article already covering the broader view at this period. If so, I have missed it. (RJP 13:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Spanish Rule

During the period of rule of Spain in the Netherlands, was the Spanish language known by Dutch citizens? If no, why not? The Spanish could have exerted a much greater influence on the Netherlands if their subjects knew Spanish. Stallions2010 23:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but I'd be very surprised if many people knew Spanish. The Habsburgs did not rule the Netherlands in the modern sense of the word. There was a feudal system, in which the local government was always lead by local nobility. In addition, several cities had acquired some self-rule. So the whole thing was rather decentralized. In fact, it was the attempt to centralize government that was one of the reasons for the revolt. By the way, the language around the courts in Brussels was French, rather than Spanish. William of Orange spoke French too. Junes 12:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All citizens of The Netherlands condemned to death?

Can anyone point me to John Lothrop Motley's source material regarding the death sentence for the whole of The Netherlands? The passage from his work 'The Rise of the Dutch Republic' regarding a decree by the Holy Office of the Inquisition is often quoted but I have also read that this document (if it existed) was a forgery. Reading Motley's history, one can clearly feel the admiration of the author for William of Orange as well as his loathing for the Duke of Alva ( both understandable ) but it has been suggested that Motley ( 1814-1877 ) may have painted a more extreme picture of Spanish infamy at this time than was in fact the case. --User:Tamurello 10:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to concur with Tamurello. I have tried to find documentation to verify this claim, which I have heard in several places, and been unable to do so. I have also looked into Motley a bit, and he is widely regarded as being heavily influenced by his own Whig view of history and his anti-Catholic stance in 'Dutch Republic' (e.g., his references to the pope as the "Roman tyrant"). He is not regarded as reliable by historians. Cf. Robert Wheaton, "Motley and the Dutch Historians," New England Quarterly 35 (2007), 318-336, who states that "special pleading, outrageous bias, and an uncritical use of sources are all apparent to the casual reader". I have deleted the sentence from Motley for now, until someone can provide some objective corroboration. - Alan 66.31.47.139 15:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template

Shouldnt there be a navigational template? most other history pages have a template listing all the different history period article. – Tutmøsis (Talk) 20:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And floods?

So there's not a single mention of floods in the history of the Netherlands? --euyyn 00:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with the implication of your remark: there should be a paragraph on floods in the Netherlands, because these are an important part of Dutch history - and, for that matter, Dutch identity and collective memory. I started by writing one on the major disaster of 1953 (known in Dutch as "De Watersnoodramp"). (R3NL 19:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Dutch Slave trade

I’ve added a few lines on how Dutch wealth during the so called “golden period” came partly from their extensive slaving. For references and for those interested in the appalling human cost of the Dutch wealth, se the following links:

--Stor stark7 ^Talk 15:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch collaboration during WW2 and Reichskommissar Arthur Seyss-Inquart

I edited the line on Arthur Seyss-Inquart in the secion on WW2 and moved it another part of the article. The semi-colon in the original implies that he was a Dutch collaborator instead of an Austrian National Socialist, imposed by the Nazi regime as Reich Commissioner of the Netherlands. By moving the line, the link to the excellent Wikipedia entry on Seyss-Inquart is preserved in this article.

[edit] Relations with Canada

I do not think the line about the relations with Canada is entirely accurate any more. Only the elderly in the Netherlands associate Canada with the liberation after the second world war. For younger generations, other images are more important. Canada's reputation has suffered badly in the Netherlands as a result of regularly recurring negative publicity in the Dutch press about the clubbing of baby seals in the Arctic. I amended the line about Canada accordingly, but it might be considered to take out the line about Dutch-Canadian relations completely, as it does not seem very relevant in this section on Dutch history (why is there no reference to relations with the U.S., arguably a country that has influenced the Netherlands more than Canada, or with post-war Germany?) (R3NL 20:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

Good point. But I don't think the general opinion on the hunt of baby seals deserves a place in a general article on the history of the netherlands. I propose we strike the entire line about the relations with Canada being "honoured".--Dengo 08:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. In my view the whole line about Canada could be deleted. (R3NL 19:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Deportation of Germans after WW2

I detect some mistakes in references in the paragraphs on Dutch plans to deport Germans from Dutch territory and annex swathes of German territory after WW2. One of the footnotes should refer to article 4, not to article 5. Careful reading of that article demonstrates, moreover, that the British authorities in northern Germany did not expel 100.000 Dutch from the British occupation zone, but only threatened to do so in reaction to the expulsion of Germans from Dutch territory.

In a more geneneral sense, I do not think it is proportionate to devote four or five paragraphs to Dutch-German relations in the aftermath of WW2. This Wikipedia article contains only one paragraph on the mass murder of more than 100.000 Jewish citizens of the Netherlands in German concntration camps. Devoting another three or four paragraphs to (only very partially implemented) plans for expulsion of Germans and annexation of German territory seems entirely out of proportion. I would be in favour of deleting these paragraphs. (87.80.96.66 17:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

Could anyone tell me where exactly the article quoted in footnote 5 mentions that the British occupation authorities threatened to expell 100,000 Dutch from northern Germany? It is not in there, yet the footnote has not been removed from the article. (87.80.96.66 17:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC))

Someone has changed this part of the article slightly. The so-called reference to the reaction of the British authorities in occupied Germany, expelling 100,000 Dutch from Northern Germany, is now referenced by footnote 7 instead of footnote 5. But after having read the article on Dutch plans to annex parts of Germany (to which footnote 7 refers), I can only conclude that no mention is made there to this British reaction. This part of the text is faulty and should be removed.

[edit] Restoration of some earlier material

I'm reviewing articles from Version 0.5 that have been "downgraded" during our work period, and noticed that a large chunk of material about the "golden age" had been removed. I find it hard to believe that was not caused by a vandal, but could someone who maintains/watches this page please review my edit. If I've made some mistake, please revert, but I would have thought this was one of the most important periods in Dutch history! Walkerma 05:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Complete rewrite of the History of the Netherlands.

I recently fell in love with the History of Poland is dealt with, which is with dates. Currently this is eccentially a huge pile of information, in my vision this will be a starting point to a wide array of sub articles dealing with specific articles.Rex 19:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

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