Talk:Intelligence

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[edit] Intellect redirect

Why does intellect redirect here? Surely intellect and intelligence are not equivalent terms?

[edit] Criticisms of Psychometric Approach How does editorial process work?

When I first read the "Intelligence" entry in August it seemed to me to make too little reference to criticisms of the mainstream view of g and also to be seriously deficient in that there was no reference at all to Spearman who is not only credited with having discovered g but also made some fundamental criticisms of the whole testing framework from which his g had emerged. Accordingly, I dropped in an entry on Criticisms of the Psychometric Approach. I have just checked and this stayed there until 1 October. But how and why did it then get removed. The next entry is from Gadomski who says he (or she) is "new here". But by the time the next version ... seemingly also prepared by Gadomski a few hours later ... appears the section I inserted has been deleted. Did "New boy/girl" Gadomski do that? If so it seems strange. And if he/she did not it seems even stranger.

Quester67 10:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] environmental influences on intelligence

There doesn't seem to be an entry on this. There ought to be. At present discussion of these issues makes the Race and Intelligence entry long and confusing.

Quester67 13:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intelligence tests

It would be nice to mention say the modified blink reflex

http://www.psy.uwa.edu.au/user/mike/biglab/adult.htm

Also, it might be worthwhile to mention the Uncommonly Difficult IQ tests,

http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/

The Uncommonly Difficult tests are commonly broken links. A more up-to-date list is maintained at http://www.iqte.st/iqtests/index.html

That is one cluttered site. Basically take this if you live in america and this if you live in england.

Isn't this (the BBC one mentioned above) just a test about what happened in the news? What on earth can that have to do with intelligence? I've noticed this before in my unsuccessful search for a reliable IQ test on the internet, I'm wondering if it once was an IQ test and has changed to a current events quiz? I can't understand why it would be described as a test of intelligence if it merely asks what month a political event occured in etc. Richard001 03:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hunt 2001?

The current article suggests that multiple intelligences theory has somehow been empirically denied. I find this rather improbable given that its basis is empirical. Howard Gardner very precisely decided how to identify individual intelligences. In order for an intelligence to qualify, there had to be geniuses at it specifically, and it had to be shown to correlate to a specific part of the brain (i.e., if brain damage is _here_ logical intelligence is reduced but others remain unaffected). Maybe some more details could be provided as to how multiple intelligences has been 'disproven' ?

[edit] Intelligence and education

I have met some very smart people who are not educated. So if you talk to them on academic topics or even some common sense topics, they sound like idiots. However, they are smart and quick minded. If you have patience to show them what you know, they pick it up in one day more than you did in 4 years of college. These are basically genius with no knowledge. They are like skillful craftmen with no material in their hands or they are too lazy to produce anything. They are diamonds in the rough due to lack of opportunity or lack of motivation to excel. They have potential, but they don't have any end results nor success. Are these kind of people classified as intelligent?

On the other hand, I have met people who gained a PhD degree via pure hardwork. They sound smart in their area of expertise, but when you change topics, they are unable to pickup anything without a week's training. Are these consider intelligent people because of what they know in their head?

Is the wealth of knowledge, or the lack of, counted towards one's intelligence? What is the academic view on this? Should this kind of distinction mentioned in this article?

67.117.82.1 02:38, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, knowledge and intelligence (measured by IQ) are correlated, but they are not identical -- as you point out. This distinction might be understood in terms of the g-crystalized and g-fluid distinction. I imagine a test like Raven's Does anyone else have an insight on the academic study of knowledge versus intelligence? This might be a topic for the intelligence quotient article. --Rikurzhen 02:53, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Knowledge and intelligence are not the same, but are causally related: intelligence causes knowledge. Intelligence can be measured accurately in an 8-year-old using a test with no words and based upon universal concepts such as "up/down", "open/closed", "inside/outside". Raven's Progressive Matrices are a good example. Clearly, an 8-year-old could score well without any practical knowledge; however, such a dichotomy is unlikely because of the causal relationship. The child's test scores will remain (on average) a good predictor of all the intelligence-associated outcomes throughout his life, again showing that intelligence, absent knowledge obtained later, is the "key ingredient".

In the employment literature, Chapter 1 is "Select on Intelligence." (E.g., see the Blackwell Handbook of Organizational Behavior and 'look inside the book'.) The syllogism is: Job knowledge is the primary determinant of job performance. Intelligence is the primary determinant of the acquisition speed and asymptotic level of job knowledge attained. Therefore, hire people who are smart but ignorant over people who are stupid but knowledgable. --DAD 06:44, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And what of the difference between being smart and being intelligent? Certainly there is somewhat of a difference. It seems that to be smart is to get good grades and to be intelligent is to grasp the concepts. --Theaterfreak64 08:49, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

The technical literature does not make such a distinction. Cognitive ability correlates well with school grades (correlation of 0.6-0.7, Jensen 1998) and aligns very well with "thinking abstractly" and "comprehending ideas". Because the cognitive ability/grade correlation is less than 1.0, many people know someone who got great grades but appears to not be that intelligent. The data suggest these people are the exception, not the rule. --DAD 18:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nominalistic approach to Intelligence, Not IQ!

I would propose that this entry should be rectified, whereas it shows considerable bias towards a materialistic and onto-empiricist understanding of intelligence prominent within cognitive psychology. This might be the proper approach in an entry under the heading "IQ" or other quantitative measurement of human performance. However, this entry "intelligence" should reflect not only what is referred here implicitly but rather pejoratively the "common sense" opinion of laymen, but also findings in sociology, philosophy and thoughts on the subject in culture and art; these findings may or may not be better aware of the hidden ontological claims apparent in many a research paper on the subject within the branch of intelligence studies. There, intelligence is narrowly defined in order to become measurable according to a science committed to a specific semi-empirical world- view. A more phenomenological/anthropological approach in discussing intelligence is called for, which could avoid the pitfalls of the pseudo-scientific tendencies of "rubber band" measurements. This entry marginalizes criticism at the bottom as public controversy around ideas which are supposed to be widely acknowledged among scientist! It should be the other way around. First a Culture relative and nominalistic definition of intelligence. "Intelligence is what people say in a given community that is the case of such a property". Next an effort should be made to group those ideas, and finally and overview of different ideas on whether and how these ideas can (or can not) be correlated to stable/fixed and measurable behavior. There is not a widespread consensus on this among scientist! First of all because psychology is not an unified science with a shared paradigm or methodology, far from it. Secondly, any field of study that deals with such a dynamic property as human intelligence should be highly aware of the fact that humans live in a reflective culture, where the ideas of psychology interact with society and have the potential of becoming self-revelatory. Intelligence has only been studied for a century or so, in a higly techno-rational culture, therefore any claim that intelligence studies are Proper Science based on the sole fact that their findings have hitherto been proven predictative about the success of individuals in the academia and corporate hierarchy are absurd.

Finally, I would like to comment on this article: "Gottfredson, L.S. (2003).Suppressing intelligence research: hurting those we intend to help."

This is a good external link and clears up many of the common misconceptions on the subject of IQ. However, her arguments are in some cases flawed by straw-man tactics, when it comes to social understandings of the concept of Intelligence (Not gIQ), and ends upp creating more problems. Her good intentions are not in question, but the role and effect of IQ in society. Her victimization of the researcher in the field of intelligence is however at best trite and banal considering the gravity of the issue how measurement of human performance has been and is used in systematic exclusion, exploatation and violence agains human beings. Her professed pathos for the under-dogs of this world as being the victims of media distortion of IQ/intelligence is understandable. Many would claim though, that this is not a problem of inventing/finding a more accurate IQ test, but a socio-economic problem, where human worth and differences are narrowly judged according to a certain cultures idea on what is a functional individual. Cognitive psychology and the field of quantitative studies on human behavior are unfortunately a part of the problem - actively either distancing itself or dismissing critical theory that deals with the connection between power/capital and the human sciences. The implication could be terrible and psychology is not absolved by simply stating that it is just doing science or improving clinical care. The subject "intelligence" has never been and can never become a simple empirical subject-matter free of a historical, ideological and social context.

This entry should reflect considerations like this, and hopefully give an idea of the concept in a broader historical view which includes all cultures, religious believes, different eras of human history and sub-cultures.

Simply referring such considerations to the entry "nature vs. nurture" is not acceptable. Quantitative pshychology can not be allowed to appropriate the concept of intelligence and act as its only authorative source of reliable definitions.

[edit] Some vicious circle fallacies of IQ/Intelligence

In the English language (not my native tongue), there is a strong emphasis on defining essentials traits of human beings with substantive nouns. "Intelligence" is therefore often described (false/wrong?) with predicates that are assumed to be secondary effects of the very noun/substance they describe. (By English language I naturally mean in this case the one used by the educated upper strata of society)

Intelligence is e.g. in this entry said to be a problem-solving quality. Of course this must refer to some acts of problem-solving that are then said to both describe and be the effect of intelligence. The aporia is obvious and scientists longing for a standardized test is well justified; hence the IQ test. But the problem arises again when one tries to use the IQ test as a prediction of essential traits commonly referred to as "intelligence".

In my earlier remark I criticized the lack of social context- awareness in regard to the nominal definition of the concept of intelligence.

I would like to grant an example. Which are the acts of problem solving? Intelligence is supposedly said to be something else than social competence and creativity (by the gIQ followers); many that hold that belief tend to view such factors (non predictable creativity) as contingent and irrelevant to scientific discourse, or something about which the politicians and laymen can squabble. But consider this: In order to standardize, IQ tests are constituted by complicated problems that can be analyzed down to ready identifiable parts/entities. (e.g. Such as the hidden geometric parts of a cube, an algometric line of numbers, analogous relations between words, and so on.

It is however epistemologically flawed to assume that all problems encountered by a mind are complicated. Very little in fact. Most problems encountered are complex not complicated. One could argue that only man-made rule governed games are complicated in nature, such as chess and iq tests. (some would even say that chess does not belong to that category)

Complex problems involve a mind (that is fluid) and a problem (that is also fluid). The very nature of the problem is inter-dependently and dynamically constituted by the problem-solving act itself. The phenomena described tend to be described holistically and is considered irreducible. (E.g. Consider Game-theory in economics. A rational agent on both sides of the table has a very, very destabilizing effect on predictive psychology!)

Most problems involving two intelligent beings or societies are complex in nature. Hence, the very project of quantitatively assessing intelligence could be misguided or a perverse attempt to re-define all human problem-solving acts as only dealing with "complicated" problems. What is left out by such psychologists, - all our real problems -, are then solved without notice as a qualitative ability and not given credit or considered an achievement. (And the perpetrators of social injustices are very quick on learning the psychological jargon when it suits them.) Consider the deep rooted gender-inequalities when it comes to considering child-rearing as genuine achievement in problem-solving production.

Creativity, wisdom, emotional and irrational or a-rational intuitions therefore all should be taken in consideration when dealing with intelligence as an aggregation of problem-solving qualities.

That such concept of intelligence could not be standardized would in fact be a merit, because standardization necessarily presumes complicated problems and not a complex. It would merely define intelligence as a subject beyond the scope of quantitative psychology, and limit there proponents’ ambitions to better suited goals.

Why we live in a society in the west where schools and corporate society reduce human problem-solving acts to mere analysis of ready-made a priori simplifications and abstractions is then again a problem for critical theory in progressive psychology and sociology. The very social injustices (among them the state of clinical care) apparent today could be shown to stem from the same complex source that creates a demand for a psychology that identifies human intelligence as a simple information-processing machine. Solving those social injustices could very well relieve us of the need of such psychology with no loss whatsoever of empirical content and scientific knowledge.. Perhaps it would only be an historical curiosa, something like Freud’s study of female hysteria in late 19th century Vienna.

After all what does an IQ test measure beyond how well you perform on IQ tests, human intelligence? Or was that a priori excluded in the test, because of 20th century wishful thinking by some scientists about how human minds should operate?

The controversy around defining intelligence in this greedy reductionist fashion is not only a political issue, irrelevant to real science, but also controversial in an epistemological, ontological and methodological sense. It is long due that such controversy should not be given the benefit of the doubt within social sciences, not to mention why on earth such views are given a priority in encyclopedia dedicated to human knowledge as understood by human beings. Again I am discussing this regarding the entry on human intelligence. I have no qualms about the wonders of statistical tests, but they should be addressed under the heading IQ tests.

VBA

This page really needs to discuss things like Stephen Jay Gould's criticisms of typical notions of IQ as measuring intelligence, since it makes many of the logical errors he criticizes and other absurdities. For example: "Contrary to the claim that IQ is a social construct, cognitive ability is heritable." This makes no sense. The amount of time young children spend reading is highly heritable, but this does not require a reading gene -- it makes sense that children will follow their parents and read if they do. AaronSw 00:56, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AaronSw, if I were approaching this article with no prior knowledge of this subject, I would agree with your position. However, let me offer my own reason -- in the form of analogy -- for not adding a full summary of Gould's criticisms, which I believe is the reason that the previous editors of the article have done so as well. Adding an extensive discussion of Gould to this artcle is like adding an extensive discussion of Michael Behe to the evolution article. Like Behe, Gould's arguments are regarded very poorly by researchers (in the field of evolution/intelligence respectively). In support of my claim, I offer [1] and [2]. If you disagree with this assesment, you are of course welcome to try to add more Gould to this article. However, I would strongly recommend that we add at most a link to The Mismeasure of Man. --Rikurzhen 06:03, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Intelligence as opinion?

I removed this sentence:

In strict sense intelligence is simply the opinion of an observer of some behavior or operation.

It has no reference and, on its face, is not true. What "in strict sense" means is not clear -- does this imply that "in broad sense" intelligence does not reflect opinion, but rather some absolute scale? Moreover, the kinds of tests used to evaluate intelligence in psychometrics, such as pattern recognition and mathematics, generally do not depend on opinion, either among testers or subjects. Perhaps the author of the sentence meant that people differ in their opinions of what constitutes intelligence, which is a reasonable point. --DAD 16:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Specific Learning Disabilities as Evidence Against g Factor?

The article Intelligence (trait), Intelligence quotient, and General intelligence factor make no mention of the clearest evidence against one general factor of intelligence: learning disabilities! People with specific learning disabilities will show an unusual scatter of scores on the various subtests of intelligence tests; and a measure of, for example, spatial reasoning skills is not necessarily an accurate measure of their intelligence overall.

In my case, the Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale--Third Edition (WAIS-III) measured a full-scale intelligence quotient (IQ) of 116, a verbal IQ of 134, and a performance IQ of only 94. This implies weaknesses in visuospatial reasoning, motor coordination, pattern matching, and nonverbal communication (e.g., facial expression, inflection of voice, and implied meanings) with strengths in verbal-analytical reasoning, vocabulary, and auditory perception.

A test that relied on the performance domain of the WAIS-III would underestimate my intelligence (if one believes there is a single g factor); and a test that relied on analytical reasoning, nuance of vocabulary, and analogies would overestimate it.

Technical point: My specific learning disability was diagnosed as the pervasive developmental disorder called Asperger's syndrome.

The larger point you bring up is worth noting, but not the actual interpretation you suggest. g is explitictly not a theory of cognitive structure, and g theoriest explicitly claim to not have evidence against the modular view of the mind dominant in cognitive science. They believe that g is a construct and that the biological underpinnings of g may be numerous and varied. Although I've never read an account of g in the context of developmental disorders, that sounds very interesting and the articles should strive to not give the impression that g theory is considered complete, and instead we should point out that it is constantly evolving. --Rikurzhen 06:01, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is the ability to understand concepts related to intelligence?

Well, is the ability to understand concepts related to intelligence?--Light current 23:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

What about the ability to think about one's thoughts?

[edit] Correlates of intelligence

I am considering putting in a section where we list all the things that are known to correlate with intelligence. Does anyone think this is a good idea? Dd2 14:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I added this section. --Jcbutler 23:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from main page

I just removed this from the main page:

Relating "Intelligence" with "Creativity" with "Critical Thinking"

I have just come from CREATIVITY and CREATIVE THINKING, and I've been thinking that the 'page' on INTELLIGENCE is not intelligent enough. The 'page' on INTELLIGENCE is trying to EAT UP everything that can be said under either or both CREATIVITY and CRITICAL THINKING. This is not intelligent redundancy. We have to consider the three and relate/correlate them before we can do any intelligent discussion on each of them and all of them. I mean, we have first to distinguish -- if we can -- what is creative thinking and what is critical thinking and what is intelligence and what makes them different from each other?

Offhand, if you ask me right now, INTELLIGENCE is a measurement of thinking which is a measurement of learning. Thinking is thinking; it is not necessary to define it right now. CRITICAL THINKING is that part of intelligence which involves what Edward de Bono calls vertical thinking: sequential, linear, hierarchical, mathematical, logical, chronological. In other words, critical thinking is rational thinking; it is scientific - it can be probed; it can be proved. CREATIVE THINKING is that part of intelligence which involves what De Bono calls lateral thinking: non-sequential, non-linear, non-hierarchical, non-mathematical, non-logical, non-chronological. In other words, creative thinking is irrational thinking; it is un-scientific - and that's why it's wonderful. I'm Filipino; how do the Americans say it? 'You don't have to be crazy, but it works!'

frankahilario 20 october 0604 manila time

Jokestress 22:43, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why is Gould mentioned in most wikipedia articles related to intelligence?

It's my understanding that Gould was not considered to be an expert by others who were. What is the criteria for including opinions contrary to the mainstream? There has to be some sort of standards that wikipedia lives by in this area. I'd be very surprised if Gould meets those to be quite honest.

Because Gould epitomizes the materialistic ideology espoused in the wiki religion.--199.133.16.13 18:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)--Tstrobaugh 18:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Gould was not considered to be an expert by others who were."

To whom are you referring when you mention "those who were" experts? Arthur Jensen and others Gould challenged? What constitues an expert, anyway? Might we just as easily dub Gould an "expert" and say Jensen wasn't considered an expert by him?

I'm new to this field (and obviously less well-read than most of you) so please go easy on me if I sound dumb and incredibly naive. But in most fields, those who aren't seen as "experts" are completely ignored. For example, we don't see geneticists scrambling to debunk astrology's claims that the stars determine our personality traits and predispositions to disease. It would seem that Jensen respected Gould's expertise, and vice versa, otherwise why would each man acknowledge the other's work and spend time trying to refute it?. M. Frederick 02:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What do they teach us in schools?

The definition in my book for "intelligent ", under the heading "mental fitness", in the "fitness" chapter, subject: life orientation, is: "'n Probleem word vinnig opgelos of 'n antwoord word vinnig gegee." translated into English, this would read: "Any problem is solved or any answer is given within a short period of time." I regard this as complete nonsense, given the fact that they emphasize how fast the information is processed. Can anyone comment on this? Maybe I am wrong? I am currently in grade 9, but I still think it's necessary for the schools to teach us correct stuff. Scotteh 19:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First Paragraph

This sentence doesn't make sense to me: "Although many generally regard the concept of intelligence as having a much broader scope, in some schools of psychology, the study of intelligence generally regards this trait as distinct from creativity, personality, character, or wisdom". What should it say? I'd fix it, but I'm not sure what exactly it's supposed to say. Emily ^{(Funtrivia Freak)} 03:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It used to say Although nonscientists generally regard the concept of intelligence as having much broader scope, in psychology, the study of intelligence generally regards this behavioral trait as distinct from creativity, personality, character, or wisdom. --Rikurzhen 03:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Intelligence (trait) → Intelligence … Rationale: Intelligence has been moved to Intelligence (disambiguation); freeing Intelligence for the primary meaning (trait). Proposal for move was placed by another user, but seemingly not requested here. Sounds like a good idea. … Please share your opinion at Talk:Intelligence (trait). —Rikurzhen 03:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support Yep. --Nectar 04:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Support Although I think intelligence (the trait) is the primary meaning of intelligence (the word), note that a google search on intelligence gives a pretty even mix of the major three senses of the term (the trait, information as in CIA, and computational intelligence) over the first 20 hits. Therefore the article should have links to the other two meanings at the top. Nesbit 05:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. Hatnotes per Nesbit. --Dhartung | Talk 07:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Support. "Intelligence" redirects to this article as it is; the trait is surely what most people are looking for when they type "Intelligence" in the search bar, and with the disambiguation link at the top, everyone will be happy. Keith Davies Lehwald 20:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Support I think this is the article people generally want when the type in Intelligence and press go. --chemica 02:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Vegaswikian 22:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Definition of intelligence: In any being,faculty/capacity of,and degree of perfection in, observing,noticing,understanding,relating,thinking,reasoning,concluding and eventually deciding,correctly,effectivelly and fast.

<gerardoab2000@gmail.com>

[edit] External References

86.141.95.72 21:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[Kreso Bilan] Removed reference to purely Croatian site on intelligence tests: * Free IQ & Personality tests.

[edit] Category CfD

It has been suggested category:intelligence be merged with category:cognitive intelligence: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_26#Category:Intelligence. --Nectar 01:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rename this article

I think this article should be renamed, "Human intelligence." There is a redirect from "Animal intelligence" to Animal cognition, but this article, far from being a general overview of intelligence or cognition across species, is an overview o issues in human intelligence. I have no objection but the name should reflect this accurately. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The current name is short and effective, and consistent with many, many academic book and article names. I don't think there is any serious confusion of topics. --Jcbutler 20:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is not about "intelligence," it is only about human intelligence. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Slrubenstein is absolutely correct. The title should reflect the topic which is human intelligence. Animal intelligence is a much broader subject that would generate Human intelligence as an offshoot. The article should reflect scientific content and Human intelligence is the tip of the iceberg of a larger topic of animal intelligence (which includes vertebrates and invertebrates). If article stays as Intelligence it needs a rewrite to include a broader literature. The article is more about psychometric analysis and IQ rather (a psychological human perspective) than incorporating a neurobiological analysis(neuroanatomy,neurophysiology, cognition, social intelligence, evolutionary perspective)of human intelligence also. GetAgrippa 22:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention artificial intelligence. A rename is a good idea. --Michael Johnson 13:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

At least to me, when I hear the word "intelligence", I immediately think of HUMINT, SIGINT, COMINT, IMINT, SATINT, FUSINT, etc. I might even think first of business intelligence. Human intelligence or animal intelligence or machine intelligence are not my first choices. I think primarily of information gained by a variety of covert and overt means. So from that, at least for me, a name change might be advisable. However, I do not have a strong feeling on this. I do not find the current title that uninformative or offensive. And I will note that not all people have my own personal set of biases. It is very difficult for me to gauge how widespread those biases might be among the general readership of WP.--Filll 14:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

When I think of Intelligence, I think of spies and such, partially because of my military background. I think Human Intelligence is much more clear. Orangemarlin 16:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

That is so funny! The differences in perspectives. Fill you are correct we all do have biases and even when we try to be NPOV that is to a relative degree. I think that is what makes this Wiki so fascinating. I also have learned so much about varying topics I previously had little knowledge of (despite years of being an avid reader). The mix of differing perspectives makes for an enlightening experience (even when I don't agree with it). I was reading the Race and Intelligence article and it is interesting how bias can influence research. The kinds of questions you ask and how you interpret them really drives the direction of the literature in this area. A lot of bimodal X vs Y mentality. GetAgrippa 16:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with moving this article. Rather than changing the title to suit the contents, change the contents to suit the title: expand this article's current scope to include non-human intelligence (e.g., animal cognition, artificial intelligence, etc.). If that makes the article too long as a result, then create a new daughter article called "human intelligence". Otherwise, if we simply move this article, we'll have a gap where we should have an article on intelligence in general. -Silence 21:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of merit to Silence's argument. I think a Human Intelligence article could grow more quickly into a self sustaining article from this stub but you are right there needs to be a general Intelligence article or a disambiguation page. GetAgrippa 22:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

We already have a disambiguation page, at Intelligence (disambiguation). If we end up deciding to make this a dab page rather than a general article (and rather than a redirect to Human intelligence, which would obviously be less than ideal), we can simply move that dab page to here. But I think a general article would be more helpful. -Silence 23:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I also would favor the Silence suggestion. Move towards two articles, a general one on all kinds of intelligence, and a more specific one on human intelligence. Of course, one does not have to get there all in one jump. And intermediate stage could be a human intelligence article embedded inside a general intelligence article.--Filll 22:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree 100% with Filll here. I do indeed imagine an intermediate stage between the current human-centered one and the eventual general one, where "human intelligence" is contained within the general "intelligence" article; there's no need to rush to make a "human intelligence" article before we have sufficient content to merit two distinct articles for "intelligence" and "human intelligence". That way we avoid creating any stubs and can centralize our efforts more. (Incidentally, this is a similar solution to the one I'd propose for other articles that have been moved in this vein in the past, like the overly anthropocentric sexuality being moved a while back to human sexuality, and more recently being turned into a malformed dab page, where a general-topic article on all the different forms of sexuality would probably be better.) -Silence 23:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I've already stated my point of view, but I think it's important to consider this issue in the relation to other articles on intelligence on Wikipedia. We already have separate entries for general intelligence factor, intelligence quotient, race and intelligence, multiple intelligences, and fluid and crystallized intelligence, which all cover the topic of human intelligence in one way or another. If we are going to talk about moving or re-naming this article, perhaps we should give some serious thought to all of these articles and how they relate to each other. --Jcbutler 23:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, There are a lot of related articles so a web rather than a heirarchial organization might work but you still need a general intelligence article hub. Silence appears to have experience with this sort of problem so let's hear him out. GetAgrippa 23:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I favour the status quo, that is, dealing solely with human intelligence in this article, and other forms of intelligence in more specifically named articles. This position may reflect the bias of a psychologist, but likely more people associate the term intelligence with human intelligence (i.e., mental ability) than other meanings. The main problem with trying to cover all meanings of intelligence in one article is that there is not sufficient overlap. WP articles should aim for coherence. Someday, cognitive science may have advanced to understand the common core of human intelligence, animal intelligence, and machine intelligence; but it's not there yet. I'm concerned that the article would become a pastiche of only weakly related topics. WP is founded on the principle of verifiability (rather than expertise of authors). This applies to the structure of knowledge as much as to the specifics of knowledge. Therefore, I would think that any shift toward covering all senses of intelligence in this article should be backed by published books and articles that also cover intelligence in that way -- which take as their main business the coherent study of a broadly defined concept of intelligence. Any attempt to construct overlaps without verifiability would be considered WP:OR. If a substantial body of such literature can be cited, I'd be happy to support the proposal to make the article more inclusive. The other alternative is to change this article into a disambig page pointing to specifically named articles. This seems better than the inclusive article idea, but I still prefer the current structure. Nesbit 01:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Are Nesbit and Silence really stating irreconcilable positions? I believe Wikipedia needs a general article on "intelligence" as it applies to all species - I imagine most contributors would be people familiar with evolutionary biology but of course some pschologists, anthropologists, and ethologists. I disagree with Nebitt's doubts - in fact, evolutionary scientists have discussed evolution as a pan-species comments, but, true to the Darwinian framework that dominmates their field, do not follow Nesbitt's approach of finding a universal core of intelligence (rather, different forms of intelligence are understood in relation to their adaptiveness to the species' niche; the result is not a universal definition of intelligence but rather a universal framework for studying intelligence). I also believe Wikipedia needs an article on human intelligence - presumably, most of the contributors would be psychologists. It is my understanding that the problem right now is that the title of article 1 is attached to the contents of article 2. We can either change the contents of this article and create a new article (human intelligence), or change the title of this article and create a new article (intelligence). I personally do not care which way we go - I just would hope to see both articles developed. As to the other forms of intelligence (forms of spying) this is already handled by the diambiguation page and to bring it up in this discussion I think is a red-herring.Slrubenstein | Talk 12:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The Human Intelligence article needs some basic neuro like differences in brain structures in twins, etc. Some molecular like genes associated with intelligence:Muscarinic cholinergic receptors, Dopamine receptors,Plexin B3, Microcephalin, ASPM, etc. Brain injury and other anomlies and intelligence. The role of language and visual processing in intelligence. The possible role of hormones in human intelligence-thyroid and steroids. I think some discussion of human intelligence in context to other animal intelligence would be worthwhile (especially chimps and gorillas). I think Slrubenstein's idea of a general evolutionary and animal perspective would be a good preface before concentrating on human intelligence. Rats are used as an animal model to study human intelligence as I recollect they exhibit general intelligence (g). Parrots exhibit both technical and general intelligence. GetAgrippa 19:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Expanding to include neuropsychological and evolutionary foundations of intelligence would improve the article, as long as the expansion adheres to the knowledge framework established by scholars (not restricted to psychologists) who specialize in the study of intelligence. Nesbit 15:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It looks like this debate has dwindled without reaching a consensus. At this point, and in light of all of the other articles that already address "human intelligence," I think the best approach would be to create a small section near the end of this article and call it "animal" or "comparative intelligence". As in psychometric and multiple intelligences, there can be a statement at the top leading people to the main article(s). It's useful to have a single overview article called "intelligence", and it may as well be here. Furthermore, it is only appropriate to emphasize the topic of human intelligence, because that is where most of the research attention has been directed. To satisfy earlier points, we should address the topic of animal intelligence here, as long as it is covered under the same definition(s) given at the top of the article, i.e. reasoning ability, problem solving, etc. I think this is more specific than the broader area of "animal cognition." --Jcbutler 16:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] request for comments

On race and intelligence, please [3] Slrubenstein | Talk 13:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I fear this article's contributors will be put off by the topic of race. Given their resistence to the notion that "human intelligence" is something categorically different from "animal intelligence", I doubt many wikipedians will be eager to share their $.02 regarding race and IQ, or regarding The Bell Curve. The consensus seems to be that "intelligence" is best conceptualized in absolute terms-- i.e., intelligence has one, constant "meaning" and that meaning is 100% objective, accurate, and quantifiable.

Suppose we agree that such is the case. Should we then find it problematic if those who score highest on "objective" intelligence tests happen to be from the same demographic as the white men who created them? In my opinion, intelligence has been defined to suit our Westernized way of life. [4] [5]

I don't feel comfortable contributing to the actual article since, obviously, my perspective stems largely my own POV... or Original Research or whatever you guys call it :). But I do hope we can foster some insightful, respectful debate on the topic, instead of tacitly accepting racial stereotypes perpetuated by Richard J. Herrnstein and other "so-called" experts. M. Frederick 01:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this is not a good article

This article is very biased and pro -IQ. It does not give enough criticism of IQ and plays down the multiple intelligences, such as Emotional Intelligence. Who rated this as good. Muntuwandi 00:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

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