Talk:John Ashbery
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
||
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page. |
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class. |
 |
This article is part of the New York State WikiProject, an attempt to better organize and improve articles related to the U.S. state of New York. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
| Stub | This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the quality scale. |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. |
 |
This article is related to the WikiProject Poetry. You can discuss the Project at its talk page. Visit the Poetry Portal. |
|
| Current activities: | Shakespeare's Sonnets - Blake's Mythology - Jacopone da Todi - List of years in poetry | |
|---|---|---|
| Poetry stubs: | Finnish poetry - Golden Age of Russian Poetry - Italian poetry | |
[edit] Criticism section
I don't think the quotation from Clive James that is busily reverting back and forth:
- "John Ashbery would have given us dozens more poems as thrilling as his jeu d’esprit about Daffy Duck if he had never been raised to the combined status of totem pole and wind tunnel, in which configuration he produces one interminable outpouring that deals with everything in general, with nothing in particular, can be cut off at any length from six inches to a mile, and will be printed by editors who feel that the presence in their publication of an isotropic rigmarole signed with Ashbery’s name is a guarantee of seriousness precisely because they don’t enjoy a line of it".[1]
constitutes a proper "Criticism" section on its own, so I agree that it shouldn't be on the page as is. There's nothing wrong with having multiple views expressed, but just dumping a quote in there without context is not the way to go about it. I think the proper approach would be to summarize critical opinion, keeping in mind that the word "Criticism" has multiple meanings in a literary context and doesn't just imply the negative. Sighrik 17:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think robust criticism is very valuable. It frees up everyone to have their own opinions. There is enough treacly nonsense in the article already. The enemy of art is the kind of numbskull piety that banalizes so many wikipedia articles - especially about American artists. People - you Sighrik - are free to add other, more positive, quotes. I prefer to take opinions 'neat' rather than have them 'summarized' into someone's idea of objectivity. 88888 22:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- So write a survey of the criticism. Don't just dump some Clive James opinion mongering into an encyclopedia article. It's like dumping an undigested turd from Michicko Kakutani into an article on Philip Roth. If you do write such a survey include Bloom, Vendler, Connaroe, and so on. Fine if you want to include Gioia, who doesn't like Ashbery. But James is pretty much only a polemicist. For others who want their opinions "neat" even if the quality is raw, you can put in a link to James under external links. Nightspore 13:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)Nightspore
- No. You put other views. It is not about balance or covering the field. Readers should not be treated as HS students. CJ talks about the work, doesn't simply offer a judgment. The article is worse without it.(One sick-making thing about wikipedia is the 1001 dishonest (self-deceiving) ways people have of protecting their precious views while claiming to be reasonable.) 88888 14:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
-
- Thank you, no. I have no particular interest in writing anything about Ashbery. I do have an interest in not seeing some moronic quotation that -- what did you say? um "talks about the work, doesn't simply offer a judgment" -- he does that where? In the briefest positive mention of a trivial poem? What other work does he talk about? Wikipedia is supposed to be more or less neutral. There's an artful way of noting dissension from prevailing views. You know: "While Harold Bloom has called Ashbery the greatest living poet, many people dismiss such judgments. Clive James, for example, writes..." But ok, wikipedia makes you sick. So why not go play somewhere else? Nightspore 20:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)Nightspore
