Talk:Judea

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Contents 1 Judea/Judah 2 chronology 3 Eras 4 "supporters of the Israeli occupation" 5 Minor Change

[edit] Judea/Judah

Are the English words "Judea" and "Judah" transliterations of the same Hebrew word? --i.e.יהודה ("Praise", Standard Hebrew Yəhuda, Tiberian Hebrew Yəhûḏāh)

If so, how come one says "Kingdom of Judah" and "Kingdom of Judea" to mean two different kingdoms, the former being that which resulted from the division of Kingdom of Israel, the latter being that which succeeded the former and where Herod was a king? I checked out French pages and they also seem to be distinguishing between "Judée" and "Juda." Are these words sometimes interchangeable? I wonder how these two entities are distinguished in Hebrew. --Oichiro 10:38, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Hebrew word יהודה is used to refer to both Judah and Judea. There isn't much of a difference—the former is the Biblical transliteration of the word, and I think the latter is the Roman transliteration of the province name. (The Biblical transliteration is a good deal more accurate in its vowelization, for some reason.) It seems to me that the terms are largely interchangeable. I think this should be merged into Kingdom of Judah. --Simetrical 23:36, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Simetrical. So, while they are actually transliterations of the same single Hebrew word, they have come to mean two separate kingdoms in English. But when you say "I think this should be merged into Kingdom of Judah," you don't mean these two English expressions actually signify the same single kingdom, do you? If we start calling these two kingdoms -- what we call "Kingdom of Judah" and "Kingdom of Judea" in English today -- both "Kingdom of Judah," we would need a way to distinguish the two kingdoms, for example, calling them "the First Kingdom of Judah" and "the Second Kingdom of Judah. --Oichiro 07:01, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm writing these comments here rather than edit the article as I don't want to damage anyone's work:

When referring to the geographical region, the term "Yehuda" is used by Hebrew speakers - not neccessarily Zionists. By the same token, non Hebrew speaking Zionists would probably use "Judea/Judah". Also, only the northern half of Judea is in the West Bank, so the "West Bank"/"Judea and Samaria" issue is not really relevant here, as long as the focus is the geography/history of this specific region. IMHO the most "encyclopic" approach would be better to simply list the Arabic/Hebrew/Latin names, and explain that state ownership of the northern part is under political dispute (possibly adding a link to a "West Bank" article) -- Nir

[edit] chronology

"until 63 BCE - independent Jewish state" - what happened to the Persians, the Greeks, etc? --Zero 02:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eras

Per WP:MOSDATE#Eras ("be consistent within an article"), I propose to bring this article to consistent BCE/CE notation. I chose BCE/CE rather than BC/AD because Common Era is more accommodative: it may be interpreted as "Christian Era". In an article as deeply related to Jewish history as this one, it would be wrong to force a notation that has certain religious connotations only, given that there is a neutral and commonly accepted alternative. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "supporters of the Israeli occupation"

Abu Ali, before re-inserting the POV that the term is used by "supporters of the Israeli occupation", please think about WP:V and WP:NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the current usage of the term Judea and Sameria which is POV, not my edit. In the current context the term is used to emphasise the Jewish link with these areas and by implication justify continued jewish rule over them. This is not a question of language but a question of political stand regarding the settlements. Pro settler groups + the Israeli government since 1977 use this term (in english as well as hebrew), whereas opponents of the occupation (hebrew or english) would use the term West Bank (see [2]). Whether you intended it or not the edit you re-instated is misleading and makes wikipedia look like a setteler propoganda site. Abu ali 11:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we can find some consensus here again, maybe this wording will help: "...is mainly used by Hebrew speakers...". --Magabund 12:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

No! The language of the speaker is irrelevant. It is the politics that count. Why not just remove the sentence "In modern times, the name "Yehudah" may be used by Hebrew speakers to refer to a large southern section of Israel and the West Bank, or in the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer specifically to the West Bank area south of Jerusalem." Abu ali 12:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Quoting The Forward:

I have touched on this matter before, yet I feel the need to say it again: Although William Safire is simply repeating what for years now has been the conventional wisdom of the American media, “Judea” and “Samaria,” the Hebrew “Yehuda” and “Shomron,” are not biblical words for the hill districts south and north of Jerusalem that were revived by Israeli nationalists after the 1967 war. That is, they are indeed biblical words, but they have been used by Jews through the ages and have been the standard Hebrew terms for these parts of Palestine since the beginnings of Zionist settlement in the late 19th century...

Judea and Samaria are the proper Hebrew words for the central hill country of Palestine between the Galilee and the Negev no less than Connecticut is the proper English word for the area between New York and Massachusetts. And Hebrew speakers can and should use these words, regardless of what they think the future of the territories designated by them should be. Indeed, such is the tendency in Israel today, so that even Israelis on the left talk more and more about the need to leave “Judea and Samaria,” or to give the Palestinians a state in “Judea and Samaria” rather than “in the West Bank.”[3]

The Forward is a left-wing, liberal Jewish newspaper, founded by socialists in 1897. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

You say "Hebrew speakers can and should use these words" and that is your opinion. But I don't think that the role of WP is to tell hebrew speakers what words they should use. You say that even Israelis on the left talk more and more about the need to leave “Judea and Samaria,” which implies that up till now they use a different term but that J&S is gaining popularity. If this trend is real and if it continues then some day the Israeli left will all use the term J&S. Until then, the term is contentious in its current application. Abu ali 18:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I didn't say that, I was quoting the article in The Forward, which basically contradicts everything you have said here. It points out that "West Bank" is the new term, "Judea and Samaria" is the traditional term, and that left-wing Hebrew speakers also use it. That pretty much covers the issue here. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jayjg, on 17:35, 27 December 2006 you quoted an opinion column in the Forward "...even Israelis on the left talk more and more about the need to leave “Judea and Samaria,”. The author does not cite any evidence for his statement, and people I know on the Israeli left dispute it. But even if we accept the accuracy of the statement that increasing numbers even on the Israeli left use the term "Judea and Samaria" then implicit in the statement is that some on the Israeli left still do not use the term. And they are hebrew speakers. This is confrimed by the article you cited in Forward

... after the 1967 war it became bon ton among Israeli intellectuals on the anti-annexationist left to refer, too, to Judea and Samaria as “the West Bank,” as if these were areas devoid of Jewish historical associations and Jewish memories

The writer argues that the Israeli left are wrong to use the term West Bank and should use the term "Judea and Sameria". But surely WP should describe the world as it is, rather than as it should be. And today's reality is that the term J&S is contentious even in Israel where it would be used in government communiques but not say in Amira Hass articles in Haaretz [4], or on the Peace now website [5]. So the sentence from the article

"In modern usage, "Yehudah" may be used by Hebrew speakers to refer to a large southern section of Israel and the West Bank, or in the combined term Judea and Samaria to refer specifically to the West Bank area south of Jerusalem."

is misleading to say the least. In my opinion best to drop the entire sentence. Especially as Judea and Samaria has its own article. Abu ali 10:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

So, some Hebrew speakers use it, and some don't. Your original claim that it was used by "supporters of the Israeli occupation" is clearly false, but the claim that it "may be used by Hebrew speakers" is clearly true, and not at all "misleading". Wikipedia is not describing the world "as it should be", but simply stating how the term is used today. And, but the way, all Hebrew newspapers except Ha'aretz use it. I'm not sure why you would want to suppress this common usage of the term, which has been used continuously this way for literally thousands of years. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jayjg once again...

We agree that some Hebrew speakers use it and some don't.

You state that my claim that it was used by "supporters of the Israeli occupation" is clearly false. But the falseness of my claim is not clear to me. You have not demonstrated that supporters of the occupation do not use the term.

We agree on WP stating how the term is used today, and on Ha'aretz's use of the term West Bank. And Haaretz is one of the 3 main papers in Israel and is certainly an important part of the hebrew usage today.

I can not verify the "continued use of the term for thousands of years". But the sentence in the article talks about current usage. And the article you refered to in Forward even in its title shows that the choice of term is contravertial.

I don't want to suppress the term. But neither should we hide its political connotations.

The statement that "Yehudah may be used by Hebrew speakers" is true becuase the word may turns it into a tautology, anyone may use any term for anything. While not false, the statement is misleading because the choice of terminology depends more on politics than on language.

Abu ali 17:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The claim that it is "used by supporters of the Israeli occupation" obviously implies that all those who use it are "supporters of the Israeli occupation". A more accurate statement would be "it is used by some who support the Israeli occupation, some who don't, and some who haven't made up their minds". However, that would be a silly statement, though at least accurate. As for being a "tautology", that's hardly the case. "Yehuda" is (and has always been) used regularly by Hebrew speakers to refer to a certain geographic area; contrary to your claim that "anyone may use any term for anything", no-one would use the term "aza" or "livanon" or "mizraim" or a million other terms to refer to that area. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

no-one would, but anyone may. Jayjg, you are not happy with "used by supporters of the occupation" but I am not happy with "used by Hebrew speakers" for the same reason. A more correct sentence would, I agree, be silly. So why not just drop the sentence all together? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abu ali (talk • contribs) 22:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

I'm not happy with "used by supporters of the occupation" because it's misleading, inaccurate, original research. You're not happy with "used by Hebrew speakers" because it doesn't portray the word's use in the political way you think it should be portrayed. There's a huge difference between the two. Simple fact ("used by Hebrew speakers") is helpful, political soapboxing ("used by supporters of the occupation") is not. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Just when I thought we had made progress and reached agreements on some points, your argument degenerates into name calling. You characterize your choice of phrase as the simple truth, whereas any alternative is original research and political soap boxing. I can assure you that there is nothing "original" in either of our arguments (which are the subject of the Forward article). "used by hebrew speakers" is misleading because

• Some hebrew speakers use it and some do not
• Some english speakers use it and some do not
• The phrase tells us nothing about which hebrew/english speaker will use it and which won't, and why
• The phrase says nothing about the contentious nature of the term "Judea and Sameria"

I am don't think "supporters of the occupation" is a great alternative either. And suggest once again that removing the sentence about the "modern context" would be a solution we could both live with. Abu ali 09:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the contentious phrase "may be used by Hebrew speakers" and re-worded to accommodate your objections. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Great... We have found a mutally agreed text. Maybe one day we will be able to find a way for our peoples to live in peace. Till then I wish you a happy new year/Chanuka/Id. Abu ali 21:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

To you as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Change

In the chronology it mentions "6 day war." From the book on Israel I am reading, I believe it should be "6-Day War." I am hesitant to change an article on which I am not an expert though. Does anyone know the preferred: hyphenation or not?