Talk:Kingdom of Scotland

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Contents 1 Why? 2 Map 3 Capital 4 Flag 5 Clean-up 6 Battles, Alliances and other Matters. 7 National Coat of Arms and National Flag

[edit] Why?

What purpose does this serve as a distinct page? If expanded beyond a stub, it would simply duplicate tracts of the History of Scotland. Unless anyone has any material objections, I'll be reverting this to being a redirect. Alai 01:13, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

• I think it should be separate. It wasn't my intent to duplicate the History of Scotland material, which is a historical narrative. This article will be a description of Scotland, as it existed as an independent state. There is pleanty of information that can be located here, such as the structure of the government, economy, etc. Also, there is some information at Scotland that I think would more logically be put here. --JW1805 01:54, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

the Kingdom of Scotland was a state and so should have its own page. It is a different entity to modern day Scotland, which is a part of the United Kingdom.

Then isn't it misnamed ? The Kingdom of the Scots surely. This is the term used by Barrow (The Kingdom of the Scots), Duncan (The Kingship of the Scots), as the name of the Regesta Regum Scottorum, and by the curators of the National Museum, to name but the first four I could think of. Given that there is an article Kingdom of England, having one for Scotland seems fair enough, but it should be named correctly. Angus McLellan 11:57, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, articles should be named by the most common name, not some Wikipedia neologism. The same goes for all the Scottish monarch articles: for example it should be Alexander III of Scots, not Alexander III of Scotland. And while we're on that topic, why on earth are all the Union of the Crowns til Union of the Parliaments monarchs labelled "of England"? For example, he was William III of England, Ireland, Orange and Scots, not William III of England (sic).--Mais oui! 14:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I've noticed that as well, and take offence to it whenever I come upon such an instance. Perhaps something should be done? Have you brought it up to anyone elsewhere? Perhaps all of the singular titles: 'of England,' 'of Scots,' should be redirected to 'of England, Ireland, Orange and Scots,' relevant to the monarch. That way people could still find the page, and it would be nice and proper. Canaen 09:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

As the guilty part who started the "ruler of country" style of disambiguating rulers, let me explain that the title was never intended to reflect the correct title of the ruler. It was intended to be the correct title of a Wikipedia article. As such it had to be simple to guess at, even for someone who wasn't aware that the title of the Scottish Kings was "King of Scots". Any Wikipedia article that wasn't easy to guess a few years ago tended to be recreated several times by people who missed the existing articles. Hence the one size fits all article naming policy. Even today it makes it much easier to find Wikipedia articles for people who don't already know that they have to look for "Kings of Scots". Once they have found the article Alexander III of Scotland, they can read it to learn that it describes Alexander III, King of Scots. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Are you suggesting that "Kingdom of the Scots" is the most common name? I doubt that. "Kingdom of the Scots" gets about 920 hits on Google, while "Kingdom of Scotland" gets 44,900. --JW1805 (Talk) 15:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Not common in that sense; common in a historical sense; it was the Kingdom of the Scots for centuries. "Scotland" didn't really exist in the minds of Scots so much as the Land of the Scots; i.e. the people mattered more so than the state. Canaen 09:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The "ruler of country" naming policy predates the "use common names" policy. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map that User:Astrotrain has just applied is more appropriate than the one which preceded it, but it still looks a bit "odd". The projection used seems to suffer from the same failings as the weather map the BBC recently introduced, making southern areas appear much larger than equal area projections would show them (eg. Spain looks huge). Also, what happened to all of Scotland's islands? The total effect is to make Scotland look like a wee shrivelled pea, rather than the one-third of Great Britain's land-mass for which it accounts.--Mais oui! 17:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• I believe the purpose of these maps is just to show the location of the country in context to the rest of Europe/the world. Thus they are not supposed to be a perfect representation. Of course a specific Kingdom of Scotland map could be created, based on the current CIA map in the main Scotland article. Astrotrain 17:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• I've had a go and created a Kingdom of Scotland Map. Let me know what you think? Astrotrain 18:28, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but I dont like the new map, I think that it should be the dark green which is the colour used across Wikipedia for national maps, including former states, or at least a deeper blue, that is a kind of sickly computer generated blue. I would say the same of the map in the Kingdom of England article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Benson85 (talk • contribs) 20:41, November 24, 2005.
  • I like the blue color for Scotland and the red for England. --JW1805 (Talk) 15:54, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

AS do I. I also agree that the blue currently used is a poor choice. Perhaps using a proper color or Blue would be more appropriate? For example, Royal Blue, the blue suggested by Parliament in 2003 for the Scottish Flag. Canaen 09:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capital

Both Stirling and Perth were historical Capitals of Scotland. Edinburgh, as I recall, wasn't the official capital until around the 14th century. However, I've yet to come across any information informing me of when Stirling and Perth served said duties. Should this be noted? How? I think the map should show Perth, as the town was a major Scottish port throughout history. Canaen 09:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Dunkeld, Dundee (the second biggest city up to at least the Act of Union) and Dunfermline were all capitals at one time or another as well, and the first recorded meeting of the Scots Parliament was at Cupar. But as Edinburgh has been the capital since the 14th century onwards it is fair to put it down as capital on the template. I've no objections to noting previous capitals elsewhere in the article though.

I didn't know about that Cupar bit. Since writing that comment, I was informed of a bunch of other places considered the capital throughout history, and that it pretty much just depended on where the Sovereign was staying at the time. Edinburgh works for me, since it seems to have served for the longest single time. Canaen 04:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Edinburgh hasn't been the capital since the fourteenth century, rather the fifteenth of sixteenth centuries. Scone was the ceremonial capital of the Kingdom; otherwise, the monarch was itinerant. Capitals before the modern period are largely an anachronism. - Calgacus 13:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually I was wrong about the Cupar bit, the first meeting of the Scots parliament may have been at Kirkliston, just outside Edinburgh.

Ah. That's more like what I remember. Canaen 07:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

But it has met at Cupar, my point was that it shifted about too much for a while but has been in Edinburgh has held it pretty consistly for a long time, it stays on the template.

Goodness gracious, the Kingdom of Scotland was nearly 8 centuries old before Edinburgh became a capital. If that stays on the map unmodified, this article will need either a disputed tag or poor quality tag It's just absurd. - Calgacus 12:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a vote on this, and I would also like to know what else should be in the map?

When was Stirling capital?

[edit] Flag

I realise that the modern Saltire is Royal Blue, but there's an image uploaded labeled as the "traditional" flag in sky blue. Does anyone know about this? If it's true, should we use it in this article instead of the modern color? Canaen 04:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've swapped it over - lets see what other folk say to the change. Thanks/wangi 10:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The point is that the saltire has always been blue but the exact shade has never been officially specified (although a recommendation has been made recently). People generally used whatever shade of blue dye was cheapest/easiest to get hold of. That means that historically the saltire has been sky blue, royal blue, navy blue and all shades in between. So although we are used to seeing a fairly dark blue for the saltire in modern times, it hasn't always been like that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 05:40, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

That makes a lot more sense, and sounds much more Scottish. Canaen 07:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

This article needs cleaned up, and referenced. I perhaps wouldn't have put the cleanup tag in if it weren't removed from being a stub. The Kingdom of Scotland did not only exist in the 16th century, but had 8 centuries according to the article's reckoning before that. I'm temped to break the history section into parts to illustrate this. So the history section is messed up. Moreover, the map implies that Edinburgh was the capital throughout history; this is not true, only in the last century or so of its existence did it actually become anything like a "capital"; the map is just awful as it currently is; before the thirteenth century (i.e for about half of the history of the Kingdom), the area Edinburgh was in was not even considered the Kingdom of Scotland. - Calgacus 14:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with what you say about the map, I'm trying to work on maps that will hopefully better illustrate things. I'm not as enthusiastic about my objections to Edinburgh being called the capital in the infobox, "the area Edinburgh" was secured in around 1018 by King Malcolm II, so I'm not convinced about the thirteenth century bit. The infobox also says that the currency was Pound Scots which wasn't introduced until early-mid 1100s, so that ignores the third of the history of the kingdom. One of the main reasons I don't mind Edinburgh being cited as the capital is the absence of an alternative, unless, perhaps it should say something along the lines of "Various, laterly Edinburgh" or list every place that has been considered the capital. My other reason is that I'm actually unsure as to what you define as a "capital", for example Wikipedia's article on Capital states "medieval capitals, which were declared wherever a monarch held his or her court". I'm unsure of your claims re Edinburgh not being the capital until circa 1607, for example when the Curch of Scotland was established it was based in Edinburgh. I understand your point about the article perhaps concentrating too much on the 16th century, but do not agree with it. When putting the article together I tried to give a synopsis, with information on key points (territorial gains, etc.), of which I'm sure anybody who knows the history of Scotland would agree, the Reformation is one. I agree that the article is still a stub though, and have added the tag accordingly.

Not sure why you think the Pound-Scots dates to the early-mid 1100s. The first coins were introduced in the reign of David I, but don't see any reason to call those "Pound-Scots", since it certainly wasn't the term used. Like I said before, the medieval kingdom of Scotland had no capital; Scotland had nothing like a mediterranean city, the king was itinerant, and the chief residence varied according to reign; David I's favorite residence was Roxburgh (and Carlisle), the kings before Máel Coluim I seemed to have had a very close approximation to a capital at Forres (with Dunkeld); I don't know if the "Edinburgh area" was secured in 1018, that's the usual thing said, but I think it's nonsense; the Scots were very lucky to keep Lothian. But like I said, it wasn't even within the legal Kingdom of Scotland until the 13th, and more securely, the 14th century. Before you go on quoting popular works saying Máel Coluim II secured it at Carham, it should be obvious that I'm referring to the Kingdom of the Scots, not the territories ruled by the King of Scots (you could include Huntingdomshire and parts of Normandy on that basis). The article is bad and needs to be cleaned up because it purports to cover something that it doesn't really cover. See Dauvit Broun's entry on the "Scots, Kingdom of", in the Oxford Companion to British History, in which he devotes the entire article to the period before 1300. Somehow, making the last century, a century in which it belonged to the English monarch, of an 8 century old kingdom the focus of the article doesn't cut very much historical ice with me. - Calgacus 23:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC) Calgacus 23:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

"I agree that the article is still a stub" and have no objections to anybody expanding on it. As said above, the article tries to cover a some important points in history, with links to the Wars of Independence etc. which should certainly be expanded within the article. As for the legal kingdom of scotland, you may know more about that than myself, im from the school that puts the rise of the nation state well after the 13th century. I didn't know that David I's favourite residence was at Roxburgh, but I think that shows that part of what was formerly part of Northumbria was quite secure. But i take what you say on board and hope to work towards making this a better article. p.s your mention of pound scots proves my point, it wasn't the currency for a long time, but as it was the currency before the kingdom ended it is mentioned, like edinburgh being the capital.

[edit] Battles, Alliances and other Matters.

I've edited this article chiefly in the light of changes I've made elsewhere in relating and overlaping subjects. My task, as always, is to eliminate errors and misconceptions.

1. To state that the Battle of Largs 'proved a success' for the Scots is a very old fashioned view; and drawing a link between this alleged success and the Treaty of Perth is quite wrong. Largs is now generally reckoned to have been a series of minor skirmishes, rather than a major battle. Haakon IV's whole campaign failed because he could not draw the Scots into a descisive battle, nor could he force King Alexander to recognize his authority. The Isles were too far away from Norway to make control meaningful against an aggressive and expansionist Kingdom of Scotland. The Treaty of Perth was no more than the recognition of simple geographical and political facts.

2. Once again (see the talk page of the Auld Alliance) I've removed the highly misleading reference to Norway in relation to the Auld Alliance. This term only applies to the relationship between the kingdoms of France and Scotland from 1295 to 1560. It should hardly need saying that it only became 'auld' with the passage of time. I personally find the reference to the colonisation of Normandy incomprehensible. The alliance, I stress once again, came to a formal end with the Treaty of Edinburgh in 1560. It is quite irrelevant to mention the later French support for Jacobite claims to the British throne, which had absolutely nothing to do with the Auld Alliance.

The claim that this was the first recorded treaty of this type is simply nonsense. Alliances, both offensive and defensive, between nations and city states have an ancient provenance.

3. The dubious, judgemental and highly inaccurate statements about Cromwell and Scottish prisoners of war has been removed for the same reasons set out elsewhere (see 'Cromwell and the Scots' in the Oliver Cromwell talk page.) The chief point is that prisoners at this time, wherever they were from, did not fare very well because the seventeenth century state was too primitive to provide for large numbers of captive soldiers. Transportation was often the only solution to an akward problem. There is absolutely no evidence that Cromwell personally treated his prisoners badly. Many of the Scots taken at Dunbar-those considered less dangerous-were simply allowed to go home.

Do not attempt to make too much out of the 'sack' of Dundee. Monck's assault differed little from those on other defended strongholds at this time.

4. The Jacobite army was not 'leaderless' at Dunkeld. It was under the very ineffective leadership of Alexander Cannon.

5. It is, I believe, quite erroneous, to assert that the Union of the Crowns left Scotland as a 'sovereign' and 'independent' state: sovereignty inevitably moved to London, and James was famously to boast that he was able to rule Scotland 'by pen.' Scotland was administratively separate from England, but had no control over crucial areas of policy, which remained the prerogative of the monarch. The most notable of these was, of course, the whole area of foreign relations. Foreign policy was largely determined, first and foremost, by the interests of England. Charles II took Scotland to war with the Dutch in 1665, although no Scottish interest was served and none threatened. Just the contrary: whereas Holland was England's leading commercial rival, she was Scotland's most important trading partner. The Darien disaster, moreover, was in part due to the conflict between the commercial interests of Scotland and the foreign policy aims of King William.

I have to say, as a general reaction, that I find this article breathless and not especially well written. I suspect that this is the trouble with the whole Wikipedia project-too many edits, too many editors, not enough care for language and overall sense. If anyone doubts this please read the last few sentences of the section headed 'History' by way of example.

Rcpaterson 01:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Coat of Arms and National Flag

Maybe some consensus should form as to the proper coat of arms and flag which represents the entity in this article. If Scotland continued with the Stuarts, then those emblems such as the Union flag and Stuart arms should be represented. This would cause conflict with the Kingdom of England article, for them to both use them and not be the same country. If Scotland ended with the Stewarts and England ended with the Tudors, then the present symbols may remain. See Talk:Kingdom_of_Great_Britain#1603-1707 for the background discussion on this. Lord Loxley 15:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)