Talk:Latin Rite

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We need an actual article here. Any takers? Wesley

I put it on Wikipedia:Pages_needing_attention/Religion. dab (ᛏ) 08:41, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The link http://www.catholictradition.org/v2-bombs15.htm for Liturgical Time Bombs is no longer valid. Dark Nexus 06:31, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge?

Sonria has suggested that Latin Church be merged here.

I support fully. Lima 04:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge done, as it had already been proposed on the "Latin Church" Talk page. Lima 04:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Not to quibble, but the 1983 Code of Canon Law refers to the Western Church as the Latin Church, NOT the Latin rite. Rite refers to liturgy, not to ecclesiastical polity. I suggest merging this article into the Latin Church article.--FidesetRatio 02:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

True. However, the word "Rite" has been very widely used, not only of liturgical rites, but also of what the 1983 Code prefers to call autonomous ritual Churches (Ecclesiae rituales sui iuris). One important case of this usage is in the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on the Catholic Eastern Churches Orientalium Ecclesiarum, section 2, which speaks of them as "particular Churches or rites."

FidesetRatio's proposal is that "Latin Rite" be moved to "Latin Church". No objection on my part, provided someone (FidesetRatio?) undertakes the task of changing the approximately 250 links from other articles to "Latin Rite", so that they point to "Latin Church" and no longer, as at present, to "Latin Rite" (with upper-case R). I think we should avoid the untidiness of redirects, especially double ones. Lima 08:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin Church OR Roman Church

I would propose something altogether different. Why is not the "Latin Church" called the "Roman Church"? We never spoke about the "Latin Missal." It was always the "Roman Missal." In other words, we used the Roman Missal for the Latin rite. In the West, we still use the Roman Missal, although it is no longer in Latin.

As it is, when we type Roman Church we get redirected to the Roman Catholic Church. This is wrong. The Roman Church is not what Wikipedia understands to the the Roman Catholic Church. Wikipedia understands The Roman Catholic Church to be that which Catholics would call the Catholic Church. (I know, I know, Wikipedia doesn't want to offend Protestants who believe that they are part of some mythical, imaginary catholic church. But the Church of Rome--the Church in communion with the See of Rome--was always the Catholic Church. )

If we were to name the Latin Church as the Roman Church we could be a start in clearing up this mess in terminology. The church under the pope is the Catholic Church. The Roman Church (ie, the Roman Catholic Church) is one of the constituent churches of the Catholic Church.

As things stand, with Roman Catholic as the overall term, a Maronite Catholic, for example, is now implicitly a Maronite Roman Caholic. This is silly, illogical, and maybe even offensive. A Maronite Catholic is a member of the Catholic Church. A Maronite Catholic is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

A member of the Roman Church is a member of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Catholic Church. Roman Catholic and Catholic are separate terms.

Perhaps other Eastern-rite Catholics can join in the debate. Perhaps they, too, can say they are offended with being called "Roman Catholics."

Dakno 20:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The Roman Missal is so called because it is the Missal for the Roman Rite, which is one, and only one, of the Latin liturgical rites in use within the Latin particular Church. The Archdiocese of Milan is part of the Latin Rite or Church, but it uses the Ambrosian Rite and the Ambrosian Missal, not the Roman Rite and the Roman Missal.

What official document (not just unsourced opinions expressed on Web sites or elsewhere) can Dakno produce in support of his contention that the Catholic Church and what is called the Roman Catholic Church are not one and the same thing? There are official documents that say the opposite. I am about to mention two examples.

If Maronite Christians are to accept Dakno's contention that that they are not members of the Roman Catholic Church (in this broad sense), what are they to make of Pope Pius XII's declaration: "the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing"?[1] And of Pope Pius XI's equation of "the Holy Roman Catholic Church" with "the City of God"?[2]

Apart from its broad sense, "the Roman Catholic Church" can also mean the Catholic Church in the diocese or city of Rome, as "the Warsaw Catholic Church" can mean the Catholic Church in the diocese or city of Warsaw. But in this narrow local sense the "Roman Catholic Church" is only part of the Latin Church. It is not the same thing as the Latin Church Lima 20:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I agree that the popes have often used "Roman Catholic" and "Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church" interchangeably with "Catholic Church." This was more apparent before the Second Vatican Council (and your two quotes are from Pius XII) and it might reflect a bit of Italo-Romano bias on the part of the church’s magisterium at the time.

The Code of Canon Law (from 1983) refers to the Church variously as the "Catholic Church," "The Universal Church" or the "Church of Christ."

As for the term Roman Church, the old Catholic encyclopedia (which seems appropriate for basic definitions) states that Roman Church and Latin Church are the same thing.[3]

The Portuguese version of the Catholic Church wikipedia article explicitly states that the Latin Church is the Roman Catholic Church.[4]

It seems that I am not the only one making this mistake.

As for the “Maronite Christians,” it is true that they are Christians, but they have always been known was Maronite Catholics. My point is that if we call the Universal Church the Roman Catholic Church, then we have to designate them as “Maronite Catholic Roman Catholics. “ This is plain wrong. Dakno 03:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for not making myself clear. I do not say that we should speak of Maronites as Maronite Catholic Roman Catholics or even as Maronite Roman Catholics. I only say that Maronite Catholics are members of the Roman Catholic Church in the sense in which this is understood in the quoted papal documents of some decades ago (still the same Church), in many present-day joint declarations signed with non-Catholic Churches, etc. Maronites are not members of the Roman Catholic Church in the sense of "Catholic Church in Rome" (from which they boast never to have been out of communion). Nor is there any official document (the Portuguese Wikipedia does not count as one) that declares that the Roman Catholic Church and the Latin Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Lima 06:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Lima, as a Catholic I appreciate your strong defense. "Roman Catholic" is not a prejorative ,& about 20 % of the parishes in my city use it in their titles.

The fact that the name was bestowed by the Anglicans centuries ago does not make it invalid. Remember that it was a 'term of equity'. Diminutives should not be used against other Christians,IMHO." Catholic" means universal,& includes all believing Christians. Opuscalgary 16:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)