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Talk:Logogram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Logogram

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Book" This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Writing systems, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to writing systems on Wikipedia. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project’s talk page.
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I'm removing the following passage.

The earliest alphabets (like hieroglyphs and cuneiform) are believed to have started as collections of logograms, which only later got a more general meaning.

Problems with this include:

  1. The writing systems given as examples are not alphabets, as far as I know.
  2. Are we sure these systems got started as "logograms"? I thought the party line was they started as pictograms and then morphed into ideograms.
  3. I don't know that anyone characterizes either example as logographic.

--Ryguasu 01:53 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)

Many people also believe that once learned, logographies can be read more quickly than alphabets.

If someone could find a reference for this, it would be more concrete. KaiSeun 08:27:45, 2005-08-28 (UTC)

Kinda hard... I've made some changes to make it more accurate, but someone should add in info on other languages. --Rmdsc 09:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] question on external link

I don't understand the relevancy of the link "A Typographic Outcry: a curious perspective". Can someone elaborate? The link also exists in Chinese character and Writing system.

I seriously doubt anyone would object if you just deleted it ... kwami 18:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I just have. --Swift 22:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style

This article reads like an essay. It would be more useful with fewer examples and a more objective tone. Dave 05:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typesetting

Examples are not viewable if you do not have the language installed.

Suggest replacing text with images.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.161.173.163 (talkcontribs) 17:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Suggest using software that supports i18n and/or installing appropriate fonts. --Swift 22:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of Chinese as logographic

Chinese characters need not represent words or morphemes. If I recall correctly, John DeFrancis cites the example of 葡萄 (grape), where neither character had anything to do with the meaning of grape, i.e. the two-character sequence (葡萄) is one morpheme that cannot be analyzed further. More modern examples: loanwords like 巧克力 (meaning chocolate, pronounced in Mandarin qiaokeli). Again the multi-character sequence is one basic morpheme. The character 力 (meaning "strength") only has a phonetic role (to mimic the "-late" sound in chocolate). In short, whereas all (?) Chinese characers arguably represent one or another morpheme, they may also be used strictly for the sounds they represent or otherwise in a capacity where the morpheme requires more than one character to express (葡萄). Characters used this way are not logographic. A-giau 01:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

You're perfectly correct, and the article should reflect this. Chinese is logosyllabic - in fact, I don't know if there is or ever has been a pure logography anywhere in the world.
As for 葡萄, about 10% of old Chinese vocab is disyllabic - mostly names of plants and bugs - and very often the individual glyphs mean nothing at all: a plant or bug radical was added to two existing glyphs, with a result unique to that word. kwami 02:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Its a myth that Chinese is logographic. People like to select various characters that have associated meanings, but in truth, a Chinese character is a syllable. English has associated meansings with its syllables as well.

[edit] Advantage and Disadvantage

I this the current for/against arrangement should be resolved to provide more coherent narrative. I would think relative advantage/disadvantage of the system in term of basic, functional and academic literacy is a start. Logogram system is quite difficult at basic level(can recognise and pronounce syllable). But it is extremly efficient at functional and academic level of literacy. Vapour

I agree that the advantage/disadvantage section has major problems. I'm going to delete the sentence "However, it requires far less effort in comparison to memorising proper spelling in English", which is blatantly the opinion of the author and is not backed up by any cited facts. There have been studies on ease of literacy in various writing systems, but someone more knowledgable than me will have to provide the relevant citations. Amadh 13:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I've taken the bullet-point format and rewritten the whole thing, sectioning it up into three main issues. I didn't bother putting it through a spell checker and I contemplated putting in a few more {{fact}}s or looking for sources, but this was large enough a task for now. --Swift 05:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need better separation between simp/trad Chinese examples

In the section stating

A logogram-based system uses fewer characters to express something compared to an alphabetic system.

the first example illustrates the problem where the two Chinese variations of the one phrase are "run together".

"Return of the King"
"王者歸來"/"王者归来"

My first reaction was "Hey, the Chinese is longer!" This is because when simply scanning, the eye does not see the '/' character separating the two quoted strings. It all looks like one quoted string. Only once you know what is going on do you mentally separate the two strings. This is just wrong and I see many following examples like this.

Could we get agreement that it really is better to show these two strings as separate, something like:

"Return of the King"
"王者歸來" / "王者归来"

or even

"Return of the King"
"王者歸來"   /   "王者归来"

if there is a 'correct' way to express extra space in Wikipedia besides using nbsp.

I got confused in exactly the same way. I've added some nbsps to space them out. -dmmaus 05:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect advantage

I've removed the following section from the Logogram#Advantages and disadvantages section.

The meaning of words can be known directly. This significantly reduces the amount of effort required to advance from basic literacy to functional and academic literacy, despite the initial difficulty in becoming literate. Everyone who knows what the characters mean, can know what a new word means without explanation. This advantage become more pronounced as one advances in academia. In English, for example, more abstract words are constructed artificially from Greek or Latin words. These words are often unintelligible to most people outside of the speciality. For example, the word "logogram" is a combination of the Greek words 'logos' ("word" or "speech") and 'gram' (“something written” or “drawing”). In Chinese, it is written as 表語文字 (Word expressing letter) and anyone who is literate at a basic level can correctly guess the meaning. Once one learns the basic 2000-3000 letter/words out of the logograms, one immediately becomes functionally literate. And it take small effort to become academically literate at a highly advanced level. On the other hand, in Western languages, for example, there is no lowering of the learning curve for new terms and new vocabulary as they progress academically unless one has learned, or is learning, Greek or Latin. The use of logogram reduces the amount of words one must memorize as most can be read and written almost instinctively. This is cited as the primary reason for the close correspondence between the literacy rate and functional literacy rate in Japan and China.

As elaborated upon in #Criticism of Chinese as logographic words in logosyllabic languages aren't necessarily made up of compound logograms which explain their meaning. Furthermore, there are some languages where technical/new words are created out of descriptive words already in the language. An example is the Icelandic language which has a committies that suggest translations for new words. Examples: flug-vél (flying machine, e. airplane), víð-óma (wide sound / wide sounding, e. stereo). Given the strong presence of words, pre- and suffixes of Greek and Latin origin in the English language, it could be argued that, to a limited extent, the creation of new words from those languages is qualitatively the same. --Swift 21:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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