Talk:Ma'ale Adummim

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Israel Portal Ma'ale Adummim is part of the WikiProject Israel, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Israel articles.
Project Israel To Do (Drop-Down Menu): edit purge watch Here are some tasks you can do: Copyedit: Yossi Sarid, Havlagah, Palestinian views of the peace process Cleanup: Israel Export Institute, Agricultural Research In Israel, Israel lobby in the United States Expand: Category:Companies of Israel, Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, Category:Israeli songs, Port of Haifa, Allon Plan, Israel Antiquities Authority, Secular Jewish culture#Dance, Carmel Winery, Goldstar, List of Egged bus lines, Cellcom, Bezeq, Diamond industry in Israel, Geneva Accord, Zman Tel-Aviv Stubs: Israel stubs Update: National Religious Party NPOV: Israel and the UN, Israeli military action in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict Other: update WP Israel banner to include rating scale Translate from Hebrew: Yuval Steinitz, Women in governments of Israel [1] Translate to Hebrew: Gemara, Chief Rabbi, Palestinophilia, David Gans, Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, David Bar Hayim, Jacob of Lissa, Nosson Zvi Finkel, Bezalel Ashkenazi, Solomon Schechter, Av Beit Din, Howard Fast, Guardian of Zion Award, Martin Gilbert, Hasbara, Israeli wine, Pierre van Paassen, Uri Davis
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as top-importance on the importance scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ma'ale Adummim article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

Contents 1 The Wall 2 How about a map? 3 this is a city in the region of israel 4 Infobox 4.1 When some users think the BBC is not a NPOV source... 5 Recent RV War

[edit] The Wall

May 18, 2005 email from Brit Tzedek v'Shalom says:

Now, disturbing reports are surfacing in the Israeli press, which according to the US press have been confirmed by Israeli government officials, that the security barrier will be extended to enclose Maale Adumim, with construction slated to begin in the next few weeks. As with the previously proposed extension of Maale Adumim… this would complete the "Jerusalem envelope," which would cut off Arab East Jerusalem and its 250,000 Palestinian residents from the West Bank.

Someone may want to follow up on that. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:44, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How about a map?

You know what would be really, really useful in this article? A map showing wher Ma'ale Adummim is, where the Green Line is, where the boundries of Jerusalem municipality are, and the proposed route of the barrier. Does anyone know where such a thing could be found? --Jfruh 19:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] this is a city in the region of israel

and belonging to it in the municipial way. it has nothing to do with internationally recognised. this is the reason nablus, ramallah, gaza are palestinian cities. they're not internationally recognised either - irrelevant. Amoruso 07:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that it is an Israeli settlement, we cannot call it a "city in Israel" since it is not in Israel - it is quite clearly incorrect (and tendentious). If you want to rename the category "Israeli cities" then I suppose it could be included, but as long as it's not in Israel it can't go into a category called "cities in Israel". This is pretty basic. Don't readd the category until Ariel is moved or Israel's boundaries change. Palmiro | Talk 07:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a city in israel, simple. it's connected through area called E1 to jerusalem and Israel won't negotiate its return like the rest of the west bank. since east jerusalem and goln are in israel through law so this is. See the article and see that it's State Land and therefore annexed. Whether that is illegal according to international law is dealt in the article but it's a state of facts. Amoruso 10:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC) 10:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

the poland example provided by soman is irrelevant because it really doesn't matter. Wikipedia at the time could have decided whatever it wanted. But this city is populated only by Israelis (btw, annexed after defensive war on area belonging to israel according to international law from san remo and mandate if you're at it) on state land, and is part of Israel de facto and fits into the category. That's all we should be concerned with. Like I said, there's also cities in palestine and palestine is a region not a state, so if you really want think of it as an Israeli region. But it shall be included. Amoruso 14:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

East Jerusalem's annexation is not recognized internationally so presenting it as so on WP is not neutral. However, this is irrelevant to Ma'ale Adumim, since this settlement is OUTSIDE the annexed boundaries of Jerusalem. In other words, it isn't in the parts annexed by Israel, it is in territory that has the same status as Jericho or Balata refugee camp. That's why it isn't IN Israel. Now if it's connected to Israel, that doesn't make it Israeli. Amman is connected to Israel... highway and airway... I'm surprised you do not know your geography better. Ramallite ^(talk) 15:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

that's where you'r wrong. Btw, Amman is Israeli too, but it's not annexed. In this case, it's in Israel in every sense. It was legally annexed as a seperate city in 1991. Amoruso 15:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It was declared a city, but it was not legally annexed, nor was it illegally annexed (which is Israel's preferred method). And I believe you know this already. As for Amman, please do the world a favor and go ahead and annex it. You're welcome to it. In fact, why don't you move the residents of Kiryat Arba there? Amman has eight hills, so you can even rename it Kiryat Shmonah Ha-shniya. Ramallite ^(talk) 15:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's always legally annexed - that is Israeli law. International law is am anbiguous subject to say the least, and it is of no legal binding force. I'll put it in a category - cities in judea if you insist it's not annexed though it is in many ways. In fact, I'll ask a court for an injunction to tell me if it is or not, or check the issue, pretty sure that is annexed already, will be very soon if not, more checkups. Amoruso 16:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, check with the court. And tell them you want fries with that as well.... And on a serious note, is there a political entity called "judea" now? If there is, then my buddies and I in Tulkarm are going to found a competing entity called Israel, just for old times sake... Ramallite ^(talk) 16:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't kidding about the court. And no, there is only a geographic entity called Judea. Amoruso 09:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, In the past, there were two kingdoms of 'Jews': Judea and Israel. Ramalite, some Jews have already reformed and copyrighted the kingdom of Israel.

Anyway, the precedent seems to be Majdal Shams. Why is it in the Villages in Syria cat? --Shuki 17:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because it is in Syrian territory? Palmiro | Talk 22:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

it shouldn't be... it's a wrong cat. Amoruso 23:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

This infobox is POV, as shown by the "debate" immediately above. Ma'ale Adummim might be considered by some Israeli citizens as a full part of "Judea and Samaria", international law and international media refers to it as part of the West Bank, which, to date, has not been annexed by Israel. If, and when, Israel decides to annex Ma'ale Adummim and makes it a full, legal part of Israel, this infobox will be factual. Right now, it is not. Tazmaniacs 22:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"International law" is a tricky thing that people claim to know, but there has been no binding court case on the matter, and considerable legal debate. I'll leave out the infobox for now, but please don't go inserting boilerplate text about this or that settlement being "illegal" according to XYZ. The Israeli settlement article discusses the complex legal issues at length, and they aren't any different for Ma'ale Adummim than they are for Ariel or Ofra or Ma'ale Shomron or... Jayjg ^(talk) 23:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I had stayed out of "your" articles which you liked so much for some time now, I had forgotten about the way you edit. Will you ever considerate that this is Wikipedia, and that rather than engaging in teenager edit wars, we may have other, more interesting things to do, both in real life and on Wikipedia, and try to find a consensual solution before? This is incredible, the BBC, which is not the most subversive media I know off, takes the pain to state that the international community considers Ma'ale Adummim as an illegal settlement, and also recalling that Israel claims it as its own. I can hardly find a better, NPOV way of putting the thing. Not speaking about its more than controversed judicial nature, and preferring to say "lots of people considers it as a suburb of Jerusalem", does this not strike you as POV propaganda? Hasn't Wikipedia better things to do than that? And please stop rhetorics sentences like " 'international law' [in brackets, because, of course, it's no use -- let's not speak about the good things international law did, but just about the things you don't like, right?) is a tricky thing"... Yeah? "that people claim to know"? So, you do know it? And the infobox is out of the question: not only is it silly taking such a complex matter to a "box" edit war, but it is totally unjustified, as you are virtually annexing the colony to "Judea and Samaria", which you will allow me to put into brackets because only parts of Israeli citizens refers to it, others, including in Israel, refers to it as the West Bank, which is its international name. So, so, tiring!... Don't send me to the "Israeli settlement" article, I was consensual enough to accept your deletion of contextual information, although the Wikipedia:Manual of style requires such context info, and it also states clearly that articles are supposed to be independent from one other. Please respect the community a bit more, thanks. Tazmaniacs 02:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Please respond to the issue; does it make include boilerplate POV text in every single article about an Israeli settlement, or does it make sense to leave the more nuanced discussion for the proper article? I offered compromise here, you seem unwilling to take it. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

No, you are of bad faith Jay, you know very well that articles are independent, and that the BBC is a NPOV source. I am tired of you, you act like a kid, sorry. You don't know the word "consensus", so I really don't know what you're doing on Wikipedia. Your behaviour on Hamas as shown it repeatedly, and here is the same. But you know the truth, don't you? Good for you... Tazmaniacs 04:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I won't put up with consistent violations of WP:CIVIL. Please stop trying to make POV assertions based on one-sided source picking, and leave the legal arguments applicable to all settlements in the settlement article. I tried to find a consensus version, leaving in almost all of your edits, but, of course, you just reverted to your own previous version regardless. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Your "consensual version" precisely took out the important BBC sourced sentence. Tazmaniacs 06:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

We've been over that. The legal status of the settlements applies to all settlements, not just this one, and therefore is better discussed in its entirety in the relevant article. In addition, the issue is there discussed by citing legal experts; a random BBC report doesn't really compare to legal experts arguing the issue. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When some users think the BBC is not a NPOV source...

I reintroduced the NPOV sentence sourced by the BBC, repeatedly deleted by JayG (under the edit falsely claiming "per talk" although we have resolved nothing on talk). I hope users who stumble here will agree in considering that the BBC is a WP:RS, and that it's formulation is about the most neutral one can get.They will also be witness to Jayg's willingness to negotiate and find a consensual and NPOV version. This is rather alarming for a contributor to Wikipedia who edits daily since years , and is known by anyone who've ever tried to edit on articles related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Most, like me, tired, because of his WP:OWN attitude... Tazmaniacs 04:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The talk page is for discussing article content, not for discussing other editors, or attributing your straw man arguments to them. Please desist, or further action will be taken. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

An user like you should also known that when you delete massive portions of sourced texts like you just did you are required to put it here on talk page to discuss it. Tazmaniacs 04:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense; you completely re-wrote the article without "putting it here on the talk page to discuss it". Jayjg ^(talk) 05:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I have never re-written the article, as I wrote it on the first place. Tazmaniacs 05:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course you re-wrote it, see this for example. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

See WP:CONTEXT. Not every reader of this page knows that in 1967 there was a war. Tazmaniacs 05:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not a response to my point though, is it? Jayjg ^(talk) 05:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

What point have you made? I also added a dispute tag, as to claim that it was "completely unoccupied land" according to Jordan and Israel although Bedouins lived there and that Palestinian refugees claim it as their own is not only POV, but denying historical realities. I recall you that you are required to put text here when you delete it, not to ask permission before editing and adding text. Tazmaniacs 05:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you cite policy on that? The points have been made in the previous sections. Also, hugely POVing articles and then zeroing in on one specific claim is a pretty obvious tactic. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Sic. Instead of adressing the question of the infobox and the deletion of the BBC sentence, you discuss other things. I just love your attitude on Wikipedia, it is so mature. Tazmaniacs 06:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've discussed the BBC sentence and the infobox a number of times already. This will be the last time I respond to an uncivil comment. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I quote you:

 "International law" is a tricky thing that people claim to know, but there has been no binding court case on
 the matter, and   considerable legal debate. I'll leave out the infobox for now, but please don't go inserting
 boilerplate text about this or that settlement being "illegal" according to XYZ. The Israeli settlement 
article discusses the complex legal issues at length, and they aren't any different for Ma'ale Adummim than
 they are for Ariel or Ofra or Ma'ale Shomron or... Jayjg 
(talk) 23:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

This is the only time you "discussed" on the infobox or on the BBC sentence. I recall that the introduction which you find outrageous and which you block me (and other people who have lifted the subject concerning the legal status of this settlement relative to international law - what you, or the Israel state (and not "Israel people", they are divided on the issue, thank you very much) think about international law, is another thing -:

Ma'ale Adummim (Hebrew: מעלה אדומים‎; unofficially also spelled Maale Adumim) is an 
Israeli settlement in the West Bank, east of Jerusalem, and one of the largest Jewish 
communities in the West Bank. It is considered by the international community and the United Nations
to be illegal, although the Israeli state claims it as its own <ref name="Sharonpledges">   
Sharon pledges settlement growth, BBC, April 5, 2005 (English)</ref>. 

Founded after the 1967 Six Day War, in 1976, Ma'ale Adummim is now sometimes considered by 
Israeli citizens to be a suburb of  Jerusalem, mainly because most of its population works in 
Jerusalem. The settlement, which stretches almost from Jerusalem to Jericho, is built outside
 of the 1949 Armistice lines, or "Green Line", 
and is considered a major barrier to the formation of a future Palestinian state <ref name="linchpin">
 Israel's 'linchpin' settlement, BBC, November 12, 2005 (English)
 </ref>. Prior to the city's establishment on barren hilltops outside Jerusalem, 
the land upon which the city was built was legally unoccupied land declared "State Land" by both the 
Ottoman Empire and then the Kingdom of Jordan, though the current Palestinian residents of the 
refugee camp Abu-Dies claimed it as their own <ref name="Arij">
 {{cite web | title=The Expansion of Ma'ale Adumim | work=Applied Research Institute of Jerusalem (ARIJ) website |  
 url=http://www.arij.org/paleye/maale/index.htm | accessdate=February 10| accessyear=2006}} </ref>. It 
was annexed to Israel during the Six Days War. Once the city was established on "State Land", it was declared
 a city in 1991. The municipal borders are about 50 square kilometres (19 square miles) in size. According to the
 Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS), in 2006 the city had a total population of 31,400 <ref> 
 [http://www.cbs.gov.il/population/new_2007/table3.pdf Israel Central Bureau of Statistics]</ref>. 

The city's planning scheme, which was finalized in 1983, sets Ma'ale Adummim borders to an area of approximately
35 square kilometers. Of these, only 3.7 square kilometers have been built so far, representing the settlements 
of Ma'ale Adummim, Mishor Adumim, Kfar Adumim, and Allon<ref name="Arij">{{cite web | title=The Expansion of Ma'ale Adumim | work=Applied Research Institute of Jerusalem (ARIJ) website | url=http://www.arij.org/paleye/maale/index.htm | accessdate=February 10| accessyear=2006}} </ref> Ma'ale Adumim is governed by an elected mayor and city council.
 The current mayor is Benny Cashriel, recently elected to a third term by a large majority of the population.

Your version is the actual one, which makes no mention of international law, no mention of WP:CONTEXT and of the importance of this settlement, no mention of Palestinian people who were living there before, although both Jordan & Israel considered it to be "unoccupied land". It doesn't adress either the concerns lifted several months before by Palmiro concerning the fact that, until and if the West Bank is one day annexed by Israel, than you can not include it in a "Judea and Samaria" box, virtually annexing the article and using WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. You claim I am uncivil because I point out to you the total lack of respect you demonstrate in regard to contributors to edit following your personal opinions, which, by the way, are not representative of the totality of Israeli citizens, nor of all Jews, religious or not. It is not even representative of the totality of Israeli settlers. You have no right to engage other peoples under your "flag" which represents your faction, and, as representant of a particular mindset and of a particular political opinion, you have no right to disrespect, censor and evacuate debate with representants of other tendencies. I have negotiated on others articles with people from very different political opinions than mine, and this successfully, so I gather that if you showed the least attempt at doing so, we would be able to do so. The prerequisite of that is, of course, to show a bit more respect for others, and in particular for decisions and statements made by the United Nations, which, you like it or not, do represent several states on Earth. Thank you. Tazmaniacs 21:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've already explained the problem with boilerplate text in dozens of articles; that's what the Israeli settlement article is for, particularly for very complex topics like international law. As for the rest, it appears to have little to do with article content; could you please stick to that? Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

What you've "already explained... in dozens of articles" does not concern me, nor others users of this article.

• WP:LEAD states that "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article". How can you claim international law concerns is not such a point?
• See also Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Provide context for the reader. Each article is autonomous and must be understood by itself. What happens on another Wikipedia page does not concern this one.
• Have you read those guidelines? Then, you must agree that:

• international law concerns (and Israel's claims to the contrary) must be adressed in the lead. This kind of information is much more important that the weasel words "many consider it be the suburbs of Jerusalem" (which is interesting only insofar as it gives information on the author of that sentence).
• Not speaking about the 1967 Six Day War is assuming that any reader knows what happened in 1967. It is not the case of every one. Wikipedia is an all-public encyclopedia.
• "stretching from Jerusalem to Jericho" (used by the BBC) is an easy way to provide context for reader.
• "the current residents of the Palestinian refugee camp Abu Dies", who claimed the land as theirs before, against Jordan & Israel's claims that it was "unoccupied land", is definitely important fact.
• By the way, "it was annexed to Israel during the Six Day War" needs source, as Israel has not annexed the West Bank.

Please respond to these points. Thank you very much. Tazmaniacs 03:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a random collection of information. As such, the different parts of it must properly integrate with one another, and be written in a way that is informative and accessible. Fortunately, Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia, and article links handle most of the issues you have raised. Regarding specific points:

• International law is an important point for the entire issue of Israeli settlements, but it is not an issue specifically important to the articles on each individual settlement. Indeed, it would be absurd to insert that kind of boilerplate into dozens of article leads. Not only that, but as soon as you inserted one POV, you would have to insert the other POV as well (to comply with NPOV), which would lead to even more boilerplate. In addition, the deficiencies with the particular source used have been stated already. Leads should contain information which is uniquely relevant to that particular article; the link to Israeli settlement handles the other issues.
• Your point is completely unclear; the Six Day War link easily handles the year issue. However, I've added "1967" for you.
• "almost from Jerusalem to Jericho" is sloppy unclear language.
• I've fixed the "annexed" language.

Please don't make me respond to these points again, I've already had to do it several times. Instead, please assimilate my responses, and don't repeat your arguments. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent RV War

The area is regulated by the Gush Etzion council. That is a fact. That area is the regional council for Jewish town and cities in the area. No one would remove that El Past is part of Texas. It is a verifiable fact. It is the same thing at the moment. It is noted that it is a disputed area, but the council is relevant information.

The road issue is also relevant. The population that lives in Ma'ale Adummim was constantly attacked on the road. The safer roads are important to those people. Again relevant. I have been there and seen where people were murdered. It is real, I promise.

Please discuss any changes here so we can achieve a consensus before RVing again. --יהושועEric 18:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

These claims have no source. Furthermore, I can't see anyone make moral on consensus-building here when no attempts at all have been made to resolve the issues lifted on this talk page by various users over the month. I am finally completely appaled by the highly immoral description of the land as "vacant" although clearly they're were people living on it. Are Bedouins not people ? I would hope that political conflict would not lead someone to such deletion of reality. Tazmaniacs 21:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Although despite having very strong views, I knew JayZ has opposed, on other pages, extremist views. This despite his entire uncapacity of negotiating on this talk page. I am thus surprised to see that he has in the past removed "Zionist POV" as he puts it, that is, the use of the term "Judea" in the first sentence of the article. I wonder what has motivated his change of attitude towards this question, and, lacking any information about it, I must conclude that it is indeed bitterness because of disagreements with other users that has lead to this radicalization. What I can still not understand is why Mr. Jayz refuse to consider the BBC as a neutral source, as I would be incline to think that using the BBC is a fair enough way of achieving a seeming of neutrality concerning such conflictual matters. Finally, I would like it if people decided to take the time for negotiation on this article, by adressing concerns lifted above and finding a disciplined way of resolving this issue. Tazmaniacs 22:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

BBC is known as anti-Israel. See the link here as my source. [2] That does not mean BBC should not be referenced. However, second sources are valuable in BBC Israel reporting. --יהושועEric 22:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

BBC is known as a reliable source, period. Don't be paranoiac. You might as well claim that the BBC is anti-Semitic. Tazmaniacs 22:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)