Talk:Maghreb

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This article is about a person, place, or concept whose name is originally rendered in the Berber script; however the article does not have that version of its name in the article's lead paragraph. Anyone who is knowledgeable enough with the original language is invited to assist in adding the Berber script.

For more information, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Berber).

1 History section and its discussion races
2 Racism and use of racial categories
3 Moghreb & Inclusion
4 Locator maps

[edit] History section and its discussion races

This section is absolutely ludicrous. How can you know who (Caucasoid or Black) was present in the Maghreb in the cited era pre BCE 5500?? The written word was unique to specific historical areas, and not that area at that time. (At the earliest it developed in ca. BCE 3110, outside of that area, in Egypt). Where are your sources? Dogru144 16:47 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Racism and use of racial categories

When describing true historic events or groups of people it is not appropriate to use the terms White or Black. When used in this way these terms become Memes. There is no such thing as a white Cro-Magnoid or Black for that matter. Race relates to the evolution of humans. If you were to say Cro-Magnoid in relation to Homosapien then this would be somewhat more appropriate but it actually goes deeper than that. Race when used in terms of color of skin is used by those who practice racism. By definition Racism is the practice of seperating groups according to the ideology or fictional difference in humans. In doing so one who practices racism is by definition a racist. I do not think you wish to carry that label so therefore it is appropriate to use the terms European and African. There is no such thing as a Black person or White person for that matter, neither is there a yellow or brown or red person as the Native Americans were wrongly and racistly called. I hold two PHD's one in Egyptology and one in Anthropology in addition to a masters degree in Architecture. I base my changes on realistic and historical facts and not based on accepting the Meme of race. If you doubt what I am saying you should read J.A Rogers book "Nature Knows No Color Lines" in addition to Dr. Yosef A.A Ben Jochannan "Africa: Mother of Western Civilization". On another note concerning those who use google as a authority for posting. Google is not an authority on history Google is only a search engine catologuing web pages. Anyone can write articles online and have it pulled by Google. That doesn't mean it is true. Research is the key here gentlemen, without proper research postings are just opinions unless backed by facts. - Elohimgenius 21:05, 14 Mar 2006 (UTC)

Aziri, go look up "Moors" at the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica - here's the link. Read the article. Tell me what it says. Then admit that you simply don't know what you're talking about, and should go away and learn some more English before you venture to try "correcting" other people's definitions. - Mustafaa 17:05, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

he is one who read the articles of yours .Aziri 11:20, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The author forgot to mention the existence of Iberomaurusians in Northwest Africa.. It's fixed.

"Originally, the Maghreb was inhabited by "white" Cro-Magnoids (Iberomaurusians) in the north and by "black" peoples in the Sahara. Later, about 8000 BC, there came from the east "white" speakers of northern Afro-Asiatic languages such as Berber at least since the Capsian culture."

What the hell is a white Cro-Magnoid?? Where is the source for dividing original Maghrebis from 10 000 years ago into Whites and Blacks?? What is the point anyways?--Burgas00 15:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

It does seem bit inaccurately racialised. (Collounsbury 01:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

[edit] Moghreb & Inclusion

Regarding edit by Arre, Moghreb is an older usage one runs into. Arre's not encountering is not a reason to delete. Regarding inclusion of Libya and Mauretania, in my experience Maghreb does not commonly include Libya and Mauretania in typical English language usage. North Africa, does, but there is not perfect overlap. (Collounsbury 01:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

Hello! I rather agree with this. Both my Oxford and Webster's dictionaries indicate Libya (in O as (Tripolitania) is sometimes included in the region. Neither indicates Mauritania. In a general sense, however, they both concur with the online Columbia University Gazetteer, a proprietary database with limited access, provides the following description (New York: Columbia University Press, 2005; accessed 6 Feb./06):

Maghreb or Magrib (both: MUH-grib) [Arab.=the West], Arab. term for NW Afr. bet. Egypt (E) and the Atlantic Ocean (W) and the Mediterranean Sea (N) and the Sahara (S), specifically the Atlas Mts.; generally applied to Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. Spain, during the period of Muslim domination, was also included in the region.

None mentions Moghreb.

I hope this helps. I'll tweak appropriately. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no distinction between the sound e and i in Arabic, hence the confusion, the most common transliteration in my opnion, and this for historic reasons is the the French one which is Maghreb --Khalid hassani 19:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

True. In the context of the Maghreb, one gets in Anglophone writing a potpourri of transliteration styles based on French, English and the author's own ear. I know I am personally inconsistent (Collounsbury 19:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)).

Ditto. I think the current renditions (which at least are in cited in common English publications/compendiums or otherwise in the Arabic translation) are sufficient while not throwing in the kitchen sink. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I agree that my not having encountered it is not a reason for deletion, but someone has to have seen it in the first place, in order to include it. Right? I get very few English hits for it on Google (and they're mainly weird, part of French titles or from this page). I don't think we can or should cover every transliteration we may run across (there's also Magreb, Magrib etc). Instead we should focus on reasonably common variants, and Moghreb isn't one of them.

As for inclusion, the Arab Maghreb Union includes both Libya and Mauritania; Libya I think is almost always included when the Maghreb is discussed, but I agree that Mauritania is sometimes not. Arre 01:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I will readily grant that Libya is much more frequently included than Mauretania, however in my professional experience, working in the Maghreb, the reference is typically to Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria. (Collounsbury 03:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)). As to Moghreb, I've seen. Older English texts - not something one can bloody well "google" (Collounsbury 03:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

I generally agree: we needn't list Magrib since this is partially already reflected in the Arabic translation, but retain -o- with proviso. We should list membership in the union after commonly reckoned definitions of the region (e.g., as above) ... that should kill two birds with one stone. :) Thoughts? E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 02:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection per se, it does strike, however, useful to note Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia as the core of the definition. Not obligatory, certainly. (Collounsbury 03:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

But I don't even believe it's uncommon, I believe it's a spelling error. First of all, I can't see how anyone could make either the Arabic or English pronounciations sound like "Moghreb". Second, I have never seen it on paper despite years of interest in the subject. Third, I get only 650 hits on English-language Google, while an intentional spelling error like "Mahgreb" results in 14,300. If there's a source for this being an older transliteration, that's fine with me, but up until then I believe it's just a mistake. Arre 02:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

What you "believe" is bloody well besides the point. It is an old usage. Googling proves fuck all (although I have 11k plus hits). I have seen it on paper. It's usually 19th century, why the bloody hell would anyone make this up? Noting Moghreb is archaic is fine (and one can argue as it is archaic one could skip it), but just deleting because you "believe" it is an error is wrong-headed ignorance. (Collounsbury 03:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

I'll look into it: if we can't source or verify it, I agree we should nix -o-. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 02:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

A quick perusal of searching online books for Moghreb gets you citations such as the publication house "Les éditions du Moghreb, Casablanca, 1939"; also quoting from Digital Information Library "Of particular note, the TALMS Library contains a collection of 19th century travel accounts, books on the precolonial and colonial period, and studies on social organization (tribes, Berbers, etc.). The library maintains a collection of English language newspapers published in Tangier (The Tangier Gazette or Moghreb El Aksa, 1884 to1960) in hard copy." (http://www.aiys.org/aodl/public/participants/libraries.php) In short, not a bloody spelling error.(Collounsbury 03:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

I believe that settles the matter – keep. I think, as well, the current article lead satisfies everything ... perhaps replacing "uncommonly" with "previously"? Thoughts? Thank you all. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 03:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I would opt for a variation on "less frequently" or "less commonly" in terms of inclusion of Libya and Mauretania. Perhaps e.g. "somewhat less frequently" (Collounsbury 03:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

I think "sometimes" (as currently) describes all of the above without the extra words. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 03:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I still don't that's sufficient for inclusion: it's old and it's uncommon and it's a faulty transliteration. And if those aren't reasons against, there is a zillion similarly creative spellings that are more common. But if you insist, just leave it there, I'll look for something more important to fuss about. :-) Arre 06:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Faulty transliteration or not (and that is utterly besides the point), it is clearly something that was not a "spelling error" as you would have had it, and there is a case to be made for informing persons such as yourself that the spelling (like it or not) exists. (Collounsbury 07:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)).

I agree, C. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 07:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

One medieval definition was that the maghreb was Tripolitania and everything west, while the Mashreq was Cyrenaica and everything east, so that modern Libya was split down the middle. AnonMoos 15:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes! I think inclusion of Libya, as is, is sufficient upfront. However, Tripolitania would be a good addition for the list of (rename?) historical territories below or (better yet) if a brief statement was included about the historical connotations/constituents of the term/area. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 20:26, 20 February 2006

[Vandals] Why are the Vandals and their allies left out of the article?

There should be something here about this significance of the Maghrabi traders in Jewish history. --Christofurio 02:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Locator maps

Which locator map is better, the blue one or the green (UN subregion) one? I myself have no preference. Does it depend on modern or ancient definitions of Maghreb? --Wing Nut 19:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The blue one is good. Historic Maghreb is northern (not southern) Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and northwestern Libya. Modern political Maghreb is Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya; the green one marks neither. - Mustafaa 11:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

===>And the Sahara If Morocco and Mauritania are part of the Maghreb, certainly Western Sahara is too. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 16:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There for sure needs to be a map here Epson291 07:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

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