Talk:Martha Beck
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Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the reviewer on Amazon who says he is John Beck really is Martha's ex-husband? Considering that his review only picks a few minor nits instead of challenging the fundamental premises of the book, is it really noteworthy at all?
If John didn't really write it, then both he and Martha would likely jump on Amazon and say so. Since both are best-selling authors (check out John's book "Got Game"), they are well aware of Amazon. But I agree with you that the review is pretty nitpicky. For a more substantial response from him, check out the middle of this article by Boyd Petersen. He and John both married Nibley sisters, and he talks about his and John's discussions about Martha's book. You'll see more of what John has to say.
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[edit] Self Hypnosis
she hasn't claimed to use self hypnosis to recover her memories. But she is accused of it, I removed reference to it because it made it seem as though had came out and admitted use of it. Perhaps some one could add reference to it by her sibling's response. Care to discus? I think it should be added but not worded in a way that implies a claim to it's use.
- Her research in this area while at BYU was groundbreaking and published. It was also discussed in varying levels of detail in her research about homosexuality, and referenced in the most controversial book that recently came out (as well as other works by her). What is there to discuss? It's not a bash, it just saying it is controversial and unconvential method. Some claim it's useless, others claim its effective. She's been a supporter of it and of other forms of hypnosis. -Visorstuff 18:17, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Unfair portrayal
I can't quite put my finger on it, but the entry about Martha Beck seems unbalanced and unfair, not exactly what Wikipedia is all about. There are too many stories about abuse of children where siblings gather around the patriarch and defend them. The Polygamist culture of Mormonism seems to have a lot of incest, so I guess I'm not overly surprised. And listen to numerous lectures from Hugh Nibley in the 1970's while studying at the University of Utah, I must confess that I was taken aback by his rather cavalier treatment of historical facts, using them to convince us about certain Mormon historical beliefs. At any rate, I believe that this article is unfair, and a more balanced portrayal of Ms. Beck is required.
- Polygamist culture of Mormonism? Are you saying that Nibley was a polygamist? This article gives an overview of a controversial figure. If you have biographical information please add it in, it would make the article better. But she is controversial and her research is disputed and seen as fautly by many in her field. Let alone the ethics of turning a novel into biographical memiors. Other editors have done the best with what we've been able to find. -Visorstuff 16:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I didn't imply that Nibley was a polygamist, but the Mormon culture seems to have an undue amount of incest. I believe that Krakauer's book, Under the Banner of Heaven, outlines the culture of incest in good detail. My point about the unfairness of the portrayal of Martha Beck is that the article seem unduly hostile, which may result from a bit of defensiveness about what she wrote. And turning a novel into a biographical memoir--I'm unconvinced that's a sign of any ethical conflict. I'm not a big fan of hypnosis, I think it's not very scientific nor medically sound, but I do believe in repressed memories, a perfectly normal psychological response to trauma. Nevertheless, I just don't think this article is balanced. OrangeMarlin 10:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- Might be nice if you could back up the claim of "an undue amount of incest." What's "an undue amount", anyway? In any case, Dr. Beck's premise seems to revolve chiefly upon the sexual abuse she alleged to have had at the hands of her father, memories of which she says she involuntarily repressed, and later "recovered." You say you believe in repressed memories as a perfectly normal response to trauma, however the APA[1] is not so sanguine on the subject:
First, it's important to state that there is a consensus among memory researchers and clinicians that most people who were sexually abused as children remember all or part of what happened to them although they may not fully understand or disclose it. Concerning the issue of a recovered versus a pseudomemory, like many questions in science, the final answer is yet to be known. But most leaders in the field agree that although it is a rare occurrence, a memory of early childhood abuse that has been forgotten can be remembered later. However, these leaders also agree that it is possible to construct convincing pseudomemories for events that never occurred.
The mechanism(s) by which both of these phenomena happen are not well understood and, at this point it is impossible, without other corroborative evidence, to distinguish a true memory from a false one.
- In other words, the APA is saying that it isn't perfectly normal, that it is rare, and that it is possible to deceive yourself about such memories. Other things in Dr. Beck's book clash with reality in odd ways, one of them being her claim (pg 77-78) that the BYU dress code forbids men going without socks because leg hair is considered an extension of pubic hair. Unfortunately, there has never been such a item in the dress code, nor such a belief in Mormon doctrine or culture. Another tidbit is her claim that all references to Sonia Johnson (an ex-Mormon feminist) have been expunged from the BYU library. Not just the books, mind you, but even the microfilm copies of the newspapers had been removed. She states, "The articles were simply missing. All of them. Someone in the BYU library had spent an enormous amount of time and effort to excise every single reference to Sonia Johnson that had ever appeared in print." Then she states, "People really do underestimate the capacity of things to disappear." (pg 83) This is easy enough to verify, and if one does so one will discover that no such thing has happened.
- Beck claims in her book that her father never studied Egyptian until asked by the LDS church to examine certain Egyptian papyri purported to be the papyri from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham. And when he did so, and found that the papyri had nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, he was put in an untenable quandary. She wrote: "In a way, I admire him for choosing the only other alternative: he went crazy" (pg. 148). Thus leading to his bizarre behavior of raping her while costumed as the Egyptian god Amut the Destroyer. Unfortunately for veracity, her father learned Egyptian long before Beck's birth, studying with the great Klaus Baer, and when asked to examine the papyri and report his findings, he did so honestly, reporting that the papyri had nothing to do with the Book of Abraham and appeared to be excerpts from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This was reported in, of all things, the official church magazine. She also makes the claim that her father was a highly specialized apologist for the LDS church, there being no market for this outside Utah, and thus he could not tell the truth about the papyri for fear of losing his only possible source of income. Again, how is a man who was capable of working in German, French, Arabic, Spanish, Latin, Greek, Russian, Dutch, Italian, Old Norse, Hebrew, Coptic and Egyptian going to have a problem finding another job? In fact, at the time the church asked him to have look at the papyri he received an offer an offer to teach at Clarion State College in eastern Pennsylvania, but he turned it down, preferring to stay at BYU. There are lots of examples of such things in Dr. Beck's book, playing fast and loose with the facts. This seriously undermines her credibility on many levels; so how is one to make a balance out of this? The woman appears to have lied her head off making up bizarre falsehoods for the sake of selling books, or, is herself unbalanced and not quite sane. Go ahead, what are you going to say in fairness? That the book is well and engagingly written? If you've read it, you can see that she's a skilled writer. So, sure, why not, go ahead. You'll be in the same position as the biographer of that Korean biologist, Hwang Woo-Suk, who built up an enormous structure of lies, misrepresentations, and fabrications. Most of that gent's article in Wikipedia is about his failure as a scientist. About the same fraction of his article is as positive as Martha Beck's, and for probably the same reason: on balance, they have lost virtually all credibility, except in Beck's case with those who make a profession out of finding fault with the Mormon Church. (Fair disclosure: I am an active Latter-day Saint.) --Mike 06:30, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Biography policy
Editors involved in editing this page should read the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy. -Visorstuff 22:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Additional discussion
A discussion about private correspondence regarding the article though email is had here. User_talk:Bjgmb -Visorstuff 17:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] References
Some of the references point to a page that seems to have nothing to do with the topic (those that refute Martha Beck's claims and defend her father). They point to defendhughnibley.com, but this website seems to have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Am I missing something? - anonymous coward —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.2.124.251 (talk) 07:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
