Talk:Mikheil Saakashvili

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This article is being improved by the Cleanup Taskforce to conform with a higher standard of article quality. It is likely to change frequently until completed. Please see its Cleanup Taskforce page for more details.

Cleanup Taskforce page → Edit | Purge [edit] Mikheil Saakashvili could use some help, especially with weeding out POV from anti-Saakashvili partisans. Could be benefited with more NPOV info, especially concerning his actions since taking office. -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 07:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC) Im going to attempt to clean-up right now. Let me know your thoughts afterwads. I think there is far too much opinion, and probably detail, in the case involving the demonstrations regarding the Wrestlers. Information that has come forward in recent months gives a better demonstration of the fears some have about the new government. -Matty J 87 15:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC) Note: This taskforce request has not been updated for 6 months.

Contents 1 Mikheil Saakashvili 2 POV and format problems 3 Mikhail vs Mikheil 4 Oops 5 Letter from Levzur 6 Edit request 7 Mikheil vs Mikhail (round 2) 8 Inauguration day 9 Kashueti 10 "Anticipated" vs "pre-term" 11 Requested move 11.1 Survey 12 segment on current situation 12.1 Kodori gorge 12.2 Confronationalism 13 POV nonsense 14 LLM or JD

[edit] POV and format problems

This article uses the wrong spelling, is blatantly POV and is not written in an encyclopaedic format. Please take action. --TwinsFan48 1 Jan 2004

I quite agree - I've tackled the problems while trying to keep the factual NPOV information that Levzur added as well as restoring the large amount of information deleted without reason or explanation. Please do keep an eye on the article. -- ChrisO 00:51, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Mikhail vs Mikheil

I disagree. I am not a native speaker, but I know enough to say that "Mikheil" is correct both as a transliteration and is closer to the proper pronounciation. I think Mikhail has become the most common spelling because most people are used to this form from Russian. Anyway, wikipedia is not a popularity contest, so the form most commonly use in the press doesn't have to be accepted here as the correct one. The Gorbachev example is not relevant here. Russian is much less phonetic than Georgian. It would be coorect IMO to have the main entry "Mikheil", and rerefrence "Mikhail" as well. Strašna mačka 20:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Levzur - the standard spelling is MikhAil Saakashvili! I know that this is not the transliteration preferred by native Georgians, but it is used by the media and anyone who is not intimately familiar with the nuances of Georgian politics or linguistics. --TwinsFan48

A Google News search shows that Mikhail (148 results) is used far more often than Mikheil (9 results). The clear preference does seem to be for the former, rather than the latter. I suggest using Mikhail but noting in the article that "Mikheil" is an alternative transliteration. The latter is probably a more accuration rendition of the vowel sound, admittedly, but the name is usually transliterated in the former way - think Gorbachev, for instance. -- ChrisO 20:47, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The alternative use was in the article right alongside "Mikhail," but reverted. TwinsFan48 3 Jan 2004

It was deleted along with much else, for no apparent reason. Levzur seems to have a dislike of anything to do with ex-President Shevardnadze, such as the fact that Saakashvili was recruited to join his party. If you look at his edits on this article and that on Zviad Gamsakhurdia and Eduard Shevardnadze, you will see quite a clear agenda. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it's quite irritating to see factual statements being deleted for apparently political reasons. Anyway, I've reverted the article while keeping the (very small) number of new facts - principally dates - that he added with his last edit. -- ChrisO 23:29, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Oops

Oops! Adam, you're quite right about the grammar. My bad... -- ChrisO 11:12, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Letter from Levzur

Dear friends,

The United National Movement is not coalition of political organizations. UNM is political party and was founded in October, 2001 (source: information from the Press Center of UNM).

The "New Rights" and "Union of Georgian Traditionalists" are in opposition to the UNM! "New Rights" supported so-called "Governmental election block" in November, 2003!

The party "United Democrats" of Zurab Zhvania is independent organization from UNM.

I inform you that Mr. Saakashvili won the Presidential Elections with about 96% of the votes.

With best regards,

Dr. Levan Z. Urushadze (user "Levzur")

My source for this was a BBC translation of a report on Rustavi-2 TV, Tbilisi, in Georgian on June 3, 2003, which states:

The leaders of Georgia's three major opposition parties - the National Movement, the United Democrats and New Right - have announced that they, together with two smaller parties, are establishing what they call a united people's movement, Rustavi-2 TV reported.

They were speaking at a rally of their supporters outside parliament on 3 June, which was staged following the government's rejection of calls by the opposition for it to be better represented on commissions that will be counting votes cast in the country's parliamentary elections in November.

The leader of the National Movement and chairman of Tbilisi city council, Mikheil Saakashvili, was first to announce the establishment of the new movement. "Today, we, the leaders of the United National Movement, New Right, the United Democrats, the People's Party and the Traditionalists declare that all these political forces are forming a Georgia-wide united people's movement in order to attain a single goal. We are launching a united people's movement in order to remove this regime and instead get what the Georgian people wants," Saakashvili said.

Looking at this again, I think the confusion may have arisen because of the reference to a "united people's movement" - i.e. an alliance between the UNM and the other parties. I'll amend the article to reflect that. -- ChrisO 10:15, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Edit request

There is an important factual mistake in the first paragraph. As the rules don't allow me to edit it myself, I propose changing it to the form (with necessary corrections, as English is not my first language):

Mikhail Saakashvili (born December 21, 1967) is a Georgian jurist and politician, elected President of the Republic of Georgia on January 4, 2004 (will be inaugurated on January 25). Saakashvili's given name is also used in the Georgian form Mikheil (he is commonly known as "Misha").

I have unprotected the page since the edit war seems to be over. Maximus Rex 11:20, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Mikheil vs Mikhail (round 2)

I realise this has been debated already, but it seems to me that if Mikheil is the Georgian form of Mikhail, and if Saakashvili is Georgian, we ought to call him Mikheil. The fact that most news and other sources call him Mikhail doesn't mean very much, because they are being filtered through Russian news services who use Russianised forms, and because almost no-one in the west can speak or read Georgian. Adam 13:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If we used the native forms in the other CIS countries, the names of the leaders would be Mikheil Saakashvili, Saparmyrat Nyyazow, Islom Karimov, Emomali Rahmonov, etc. And, last I checked, only one was used regularly on Wikipedia. More people will recognize forms that they are familiar with from the media. --TwinsFan48

So we have redirects from the more commonly used forms. Why is this a problem? Adam 13:59, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think we should do it the other way round - name the articles according to the most commonly used forms (as those will receive the majority of searches), but have redirects from the alternative forms. -- ChrisO 15:54, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

No, an encylopedia must give the correct name of a person, not the most commonly used. The "correct name" must be according to a pre-established system. I think encyclopedias have the mission to correct the common mistakes, not to sanction them. For exemple, it seams normal to use the Georgian form of the name of the Georgian president, not the Russian one. Or else, let's use the English form : Michael Saakashvili! Švitrigaila 11:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, Wikipedia policy is to use the most common name in English. (Ofcourse, there appears to be something of a takeover by Germans who promote non-English lettering). Does anyone have the Georgian Latinization official standard? 132.205.45.110 18:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Georgian national system of romanization. It seems that romanisation of მიხეილ სააკაშვილი in this system is "Mikheil Saakashvili". --Filemon 18:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Inauguration day

Source for the inauguration day: [1]. Andres 11:41, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Saakashvili clearly isn't president until he's inaugurated on January 25. Could Levzur please not reintroduce the inaccurate claim that he's already president? -- ChrisO 10:29, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Kashueti

How is "Kashueti" written in Georgian? What does it mean? Is it a place? Andres 19:51, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

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Kashueti is written as ქაშუეთი. This is the name of an old church in the centre of Tbilisi (Capital of Georgia) - right in front of the parliament building.

[edit] "Anticipated" vs "pre-term"

Andres, I've removed "anticipated" from the description of the January 4 elections - it makes no sense in that context. I can't work out what Levzur means by "pre-term", but Googling for "pre-term elections" suggests that the expression is used almost entirely in reference to elections in the former Soviet Union and Slav countries. My guess is that it's a term in Slavic languages, which has also been adopted by non-Slav former Soviet Union countries, but it may not have an obvious counterpart in English. We don't preface the word "elections" with "pre-term" or anything like that. Until Levzur started using it in Georgia articles, I'd never heard of the expression. I would advise against using it because its meaning won't be clear to the majority of English-speakers. -- ChrisO 00:06, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree that clear expressions should be used. I don't know the right expression but, as I take it, the sense is that the elections are arranged far before the end of the term (that is, normal time in office) of the previous president. Andres 00:19, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

In that case, it's no different to normal practice in the English-speaking world. In the United States, for instance, the presidential election is held at least a month before the end of the president's term. -- ChrisO 10:49, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

My point is that the elections are arranged far before the end of the previous president, implying that the new president enters office when the term of the previous president is not over. Usually this occurs when the previous president dies or resigns. In the United States and Argentina, in such cases the vice-president becomes president, and no elections are held. In France, new elections are held. Maybe the right word is "extraordinary"? Andres

I think I understand what you mean now - an unscheduled election? So if elections are normally held at (let's say) four-year intervals and an election had to be held after two years, that would be a "pre-term" election? -- ChrisO 21:29, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

At least, this is how I understand the word. Andres 22:06, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Mikhail is a russian form. In gerogian it's Mikheil. Is it really so difficult to say "Mikheil"??? Washington post and some other papers already use "Mikheil"

Russian              Georgian 

Elena                 Elene 
Irina                 Irine
Alexander             Alexandre etc.

[edit] segment on current situation

The last para of his bio reads much like a political pamphlet from his oponents. While it is possible that under the cover of "fight against corruption" a few innocent people could have become victims, although it's widely believed that almost everyone in the previous government holding key position was corrupt. Indeed, they had to be brought to justice, what's questionable is how was it handled, and it is a subject of a separate article, not this one. - Alsandro 23:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: Also there are a few factual inconsistencies in his early career: it appears that in 1995 he was attending GWU Law School in DC, Took a Diploma in Strasbourg and worked at a Law firm in NYC (all in the same year). Can this be verified? Alsandro 23:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone object seeing this article going to the Cleanup Taskforce to help with its POV issues? -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 20:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the article needs serious NPOV revision and updates.--Kober 03:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That section is a total POV. It should be edited to meet NPOV. Ldingley 14:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Tried to clean up a little and included a link to Sandro Girgvliani murder page. Will do a better clean later in week. Regards, Matt Matty J 87 00:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Matt. I just wanted to let you know that three police officers were actually arrested and sentenced to imprisonment in connection with the murder case. However, Sandro's family and Georgian opposition still demand to punish those people who acted behind the scene. Cheers, --Kober 04:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up the 'Controversy' section, renaming it to 'Human Rights Developments'. Included a reference to some of Saakashvili's early statements, but emphasised the POV that much of his rhetoric has been put down to inexperience and a desire to fight corruption. Toned down some of the information regarding the Wrestler protests, and removed some of the info about the 7,000 strong protest against the government. I don't feel this is particularly relevant to the topic, and has a greater focus upon general frustration than anything to do with Saakashvili himself. Widened and corrected the ref. to the Girgvliani case, and made it clear that the BHHRG is a partisan organisation. Finally I added some positive's from the U.S state department 2005 report. Regards, Matt Matty J 87 16:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Good job, Matt. The section is now more neutral. I'll soon start foreign politics section. Cheers,--Kober 17:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kodori gorge

the situation in the Kodori Gorge is far from over, so saying that Saakashvili has been succesful there based on one incident is a rather selective analysis of the situation.128.197.56.149 23:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confronationalism

It should also be mentioned that Saakashvili seems to be "picking a fight" so to speak with Russia, creating one crisis after the next:

• The wine import problem
• Moving troops into Kodori
• Arresting Russian officers for espionage.

Each one of these events (and a few others) were (or are) conducted with the least amount of tact possible, the objective in all these cases seems to be the provocation of the Russian government. As this is a very real trend in Saakashvili's foreign policy, it should be mentioned in more detail.128.197.56.149 23:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we should also mention that he is an agent of American/Western imperialism who tries to undermine the Russian influence in Georgia which proved to be so ungrateful to the big northern brother. More seriously, the article indeed needs more info about his foreign policy, but illustarting this aspect from the perspective that you have suggested above is not supposed to be very neutral. --Kober 04:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

My point was that Saakashvili's stance is far more aggressive than it has to be and, quite frankly, probably far more aggressive than is good for Georgia. A fine illustration is the recent "spy" incident. Russia is already leaving its bases in Georgia, so there is no reason (that I can see) for blatantly insulting the Russian Army by arresting its officers and surrounding its headquarters. Saakahvili's actions in this, and in previous incidents, seem to be designed to do far more than just "undermine Russia's influence". Every incident I listed (and alot of others, if you've been following the politics in the region) could have been handled in a far less confrontational manner (well, maybe Kodori couldn't have). And, I would say that a confrontation with (as opposed to independnce from the policy of) Russia is NOT in Georgia's best interest. That is what I meant. Because I see this as a very real, I would even say the central, direction of Saakashvili's foriegn policy, some mention should be made of it.128.197.56.174 21:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware of any wine import problem. The impression that Russia was deliberately blockading Georgian wine due to it's Democratic flavour rather than for health reasons seems to be the flavour in favour with most journalists. Besides how is this a fault of Saakashvili? All this business is sad tit-for-tat 20th Century politics which has more to do with both sides refusing to accept the rights of the other to govern/behave as they see fit. Tbilisi should stop aggrevating but most importantly Russia should get out of Abkhazian territory and stop trying to crush Democracy. How sad that less than a decade ago Yeltsin was decrying the crushing of Democracy in Belarus as an ORT cameraman was arrested, and now the Kremlin's main policy planks seems to revolve around propping up all the dictatorships under the sun.....Matty J 87 01:04, 03 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you happen to recall what Saakashvili about the wine he was exporting to Russia? Something along the lines of "we could sell them shit, they'd still drink it", insulting Putin is a pretty bad idea, he tends to take it personally, I don't think it has anything to do with democracy. Like any major government (especially the US) Russia doesn't care whether there is or isn't democracy in any given country. The actions of these governments are motivated, in America's case, by profit or, in Rurssia's, by national pride. This is niether good nor bad, it just is.

As for Abkhazia, yes Russia is meddling, should we? Probably not. However, if the Russians leave, Saakshvili, it seems to me, is prepared to wage full-scale war, regardless of the cost.

My impression of Saakashvili is a rather negative one. He seems to enjoy confronting Russia while prostrating himself before America, the "political independence" of Georgia doesn't seem to matter to him. Adjaria aside, I have not seen one good thing this man has done. Not one. Yes he was democratically elected, but so were Putin and Bush. Both have caused quite a bit of misery in one part of the world or another. Yeltsin, by the way, was no more democratic than Putin, he just lied more, and was generally more incomepetant (which would explain his neglecting to shut down the press). I honestly wish the best for Georgia, as most Russians do (believe it, or not). And, as lame as it sounds, I do regard Georgians as "brothers", in a sense (no, this is not a patronizing term). So it makes me very very sad to see the direction Saakashvili has chosen. I see no reason for the hostility he radiates. I refuse to believe that improving relations with the west neccesitates ruining relations with Russia.24.62.63.6 05:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

And let's not forget that Saakashvilli's regime IS NOT democratic.It's an autharitarian regime (like Belarus and Uzbekistan).Anybody remember the arrests of opposition activists in Georgia in the begining of September?Dimts 07:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If you mean Igor Giorgadze's people, nodody considers them "opposition" in Georgia. They are just a bunch of old Commies and paid-for-that people who scream Comrade Giorgadze's (who is a KGB officer, btw) name in the Kremlin ears. In addition, Georgia is far democratic than Russia which is much more comparable to Belarus and Uzbekistan. If still in doubt, check any annual reports by the international human right organizations, such as Freedom in the World, HRW, etc.--Kober 07:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Freedom House can be considered a suitable reference.It's a double standard and paid-for-that organization.Dimts 12:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

"My impression of Saakashvili is a rather negative one. He seems to enjoy confronting Russia while prostrating himself before America." "And let's not forget that Saakashvilli's regime IS NOT democratic. It's an autharitarian regime." I know some people do not want to be reminded of the World War II era (unless it's to treat Americans — or neocons — as fascists or to compare George W. Bush to the Führer), but let's not forget either that Austria and Poland in the 1930s were not democratic, far from it; those countries were under quite authoritarian régimes. That doesn' t make Dolfi less of a bully nor does it mean that we should be understanding towards Nazi Germany (nor does it make that trio of countries morally equivalent). Furthermore, I fail to see why Hugo Chávez ought to be lionized for "standing up" to the Americans and Mikheil Saakashvili ought to be castigated for "picking a fight" with the Russians. Oh, Georgia's leader also "prostrat[es] himself before America"? (Not many people seem to take Venezuela's leader to task for "prostrating himself before" Cuba, China, or Iran!) Maybe the conclusion to take from all this is that the only standard for being a hero in this day and age is opposing the United States, and the United States alone; all else is irrelevant, never mind what the geopolitical situation is.

In any case, I have added this op-ed article by Georgia's president (notice, by the way, that Mikheil with an E is the name used):

• Unprovoked Onslaught by Mikheil Saakashvili in The Wall Street Journal. —˜˜˜˜

That article makes me laugh.That's just a mix of lies and propaganda (as always).Pathetic. P.S have you ever heard me calling Chavez a 'hero'?

[edit] POV nonsense

The partisan BHHRG has frequently claimed that the new government immediately set out to settle scores with Shevardnadze era officials.

We are told that the British Helsinki HH group is partisan while at the same "Freedom House" whose leaders have included former CIA director Woolsey is to be taken seriously? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.37.235 (talk) 04:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] LLM or JD

Did Saakashvili get JD from Columbia or LLM? Tamokk 09:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)