Talk:Montana class battleship

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Contents 1 Calibre terminology 2 In popular culture? 3 Comparison with Yamato 4 Copyright status 5 Midway blurb

[edit] Calibre terminology

Philwelch wrote in an edit summary that Montana's guns were "NOT 50 caliber! Whoever added that should be disallowed from writing about naval ships ever again." I am the one who wrote that they were, and if I were disallowed from writing about naval ships, Wikipedia's naval content would drop sharply. I obtained that information from the Naval Historical Center -- http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/bb/bb67.htm: "The Montanas were intended to carry twelve 16"/50 guns...," so should they also be disallowed from writing about naval ships? --the Epopt 14:38, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it was an April Fool's joke? :-) Stan 17:07, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Can't rule it out, but if so, it was an odd one. --the Epopt 18:35, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Caliber has two meanings: (a) the diameter of the chamber (in this case 16 inches); (b) the length of the barrel, expressed in terms of a multiple of the diameter (in this case, 50 times). Both meanings are in common use. So it is quite correct to write 16 inch 50 caliber guns. Tannin 22:49, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ah, cancel that, I thought I saw the dot in .50 but it wasn't there. Sorry. Philwelch 22:51, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, you could have a 16 inch .50 calibre gun - but shooting a 16 inch shell out of a barrel 8 inches long strikes me as a fast way to do a great deal of damage to your own ship and none at all to the enemy! ;) Tannin

I understand that you got those numbers from an official Navy website but if you are going to use those numbers, use them as they are given. The Navy site, for example, talks about 16"/50 guns but it does NOT say 16" 50 caliber guns. To the layman the Navy terminology, while technically accurate, is obscure enough already. As far as this article goes, the terminology seen here seems to do little more than add an additional contradictory note. It is definitely not being written as something that could be understood by someone with only a passing knowledge on the subject. And quite frankly, I have to admit that I have never once seen any of the heavier military weapons referred to in this manner, so as of this writing I can't verify if that method is correct anyway. Tannin's note above suggests that it is, but if so, I suspect that this too is a fairly obscure convention. Either way, those numbers are neither as clear nor as simple as they could or should be. It should be enough to say "16 inch guns " or "5 inch guns" and leave it at that. --Cavgunner 05:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted the terminology to what I believe to be the more layman-friendly format. I expect that someone will change this back shortly. Still, I stand by my assessment that any article should be written as if you are explaining the subject to someone who has little or no prior knowledge about it. While most people with a casual interest in naval topics know what a "5 inch gun" is, only a few are familar with the obscure caliber-as-length convention. Indeed, the ongoing discussion here and on the edit page should be proof enough that this inclusion has not been helpful in any way. --Cavgunner 7 July 2005 04:59 (UTC)

This being Wikipedia, the problem is easily solved: Caliber#Caliber as measurement of length

—wwoods 22:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Cavgunner, are you seriously suggesting that an encyclopedia should deliberately leave out information because someone might not already know it? ➥the Epopt 04:19, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Clearly you didn't even read what I said so I will disregard your loaded question. Until then, perhaps you should go RIGHT NOW and alter every single article concerning military vessels on Wikipedia until it fits your convention. Let me know when you're done.--Cavgunner 02:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Check the edit histories. ➥the Epopt 02:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

"Armament (secondary battery): 20 × 5 in (127 mm) 54 caliber guns in ten twin mountings (ten guns on each side of the ship)"

The 5 inch mounts would have been 5 in 38 caliber mounts (as on the Iowa class). I've changed the line accordingly. The 5 in 54s were not introduced until well after WW2 (and were never used in a twin mount configuration to my knowledge.) I've worked on both kinds - they are very different. Bog 02:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In popular culture?

Is it just me or is this class shown on some of the battleship game sets (not sure of the electronic ones). It shows on the silouette of a battleship that looks like iowa but with 4 turrets. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EnterpriseMH (talk • contribs) .

The Montana-class is also featured in the naval MMOG Navy Field, which may or may not be worth mentioning. --Lord Kelvin 21:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison with Yamato

There is a comment that says the Montanas would have "clearly outclassed" the Yamatos. I'm finding this one hard to fully believe. The Montanas would have "clearly outclassed" the older Japanese battleships. Against a Yamato, she would have had a fight on her hands. Thoughts? Gulfstorm75 16:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. Monatanas would have come close to equalling Yamato, but would not have passed her. TomStar81 22:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Not an expert or anything, but based on Yamato's 18" guns and heavy armour, I'd say "clearly outclass" is a bit too much. How about "equalled", or "seriously challenged"? — Johantheghost 01:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

as it was originally it read: "The Montanas also would have been the only American ships to come close to equalling Japan's massive Yamato." TomStar81 01:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds pretty much perfect; the Iowas were quite a lot more lightly armoured. BTW, happy new year! (It's 2006 here!) — Johantheghost 01:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright status

The text of this page appears to be mostly copied from http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/bb/bb67.htm. Is there any reason that is allowed? Nloth 05:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Works produced by the US government are in the public domain. Sticking in an {{NHC}} would be appropriate, however.

—wwoods 06:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Midway blurb

The blurb on the Midway seems like a stretch. Aside from the fact that the hull of the Midway class was based on the design of the Montana class hull, the rest of it is completely irrelevant and is highly suspect. THe manueverability of the ship probably had nothing to do with the reason that it was selected as the flagship. It's more likely that it was selected because it was among the first ships on station because it was forward deployed to Japan already. In addition, not only is no cite provided to show that the Midway flew twice as many missions as any other carrier, the explaination for why it did (if it did) is pure BS. All a carrier does to launch planes is get about 30 knots of relative wind blowing almost dead of its bow and the launch them into the sky. When it's done it simply turns around and drives in the other direction until more planes are either ready to launch or land, it then turns around again and heads into the wind. The manuevering only takes a few minutes and all the ship has to do to make up for being less manueverable is cut its leeward run a little short and turn earlier. The only real disadvantage is that in order to cover as much "ground" on the down wind run as the up wind run, it has to go a little faster for having less time to make the run before it starts its turn. Once again, the most reasonable explanation I can imagine, but not prove, is that it launched more missions because it simpls got there sooner.(Sonlee 10:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC))