Wikipedia:Naming conventions (immigrant ethnic groups)
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In general, the preferred form for titles of pages about people of Elbonian descent born or settled in the country of Kneebonia, in order, are:
- A name in the Elbonian language, where widely used in reputable sources and by the Elbonians in question
- A name in the Kneebonese language, where widely used in reputable sources and not derogatory towards Elbonians
- The descriptive title "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia", regardless of whether this form is widely used or not
- The forms "Elbonian Kneebonese" or "Kneebonese Elbonian" should in general be avoided due to their ambiguity, unless already in extremely wide usage compared to the above forms.
Justification and exceptions are outlined below.
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[edit] Non-English names
Use a non-English name where one is available and reasonably well-known in reputable sources. Use an English name only if it is at least as widely used as a the non-English name. Use the English name of the form "Elbonian Kneebonese" or "Kneebonese Elbonian" only where it is far more widely known and will not cause confusion.
Preferentially use the term employed by the ethnic group in question (Elbonians), rather than that of the country where they are resident (Kneebonians), unless the latter is preponderant. Also preferentially use the term which the Elbonians in Kneebonia themselves use, rather than the term which Elbonians in the mother country call them, which may differ.
Specifically seek to avoid terms used by Kneebonians which do not make distinctions between "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" (locals who happen to be of another ethnic origin) and plain old "Elbonians in Kneebonia" (foreigners who came for business, study, etc), unless the "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" are also happy to identify by this term.
In such cases, a redirect "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" should be created to point to the native name. Redirects like "Kneebonese Elbonians" and "Elbonian Kneebonese" may also be created to redirect to the native name, unless there is also a significant population of "Ethnic Kneebonese in Elbonia", in which case the redirects are only likely to cause confusion.
In general, avoid violating Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English).
Also do not force standardisation onto romanisations of non-Latin alphabets. If a term is widely used with a certain spelling in English, Wikipedia should use the term as it is widely spelled, not as the most up-to-date official romanization says it should be spelled.
Matches with existing usage:
- Korean-language Koryo-saram instead of Russian-language "Koreisky", Revised Romanization of Korean "Goryeo-saram" or "Soviet Korean" for ethnic Koreans in Russia, as "Soviet Korean" is no longer correct due to the collapse of the Soviet Union, "Goryeo-saram" is not widely used, and "Koreisky" lumps together foreign Koreans with local-born Koreans holding the local citizenship.
- Japanese-language Zainichi Koreans instead of Korean-language "Jaeil Koreans" for ethnic Koreans in Japan, as "Jaeil Koreans" is not a well-known form. (Also note that it is not "Zainichi Kankokujin". Nor "Zainiti Kankokuzin".)
- Chinese Puerto Rican rather than poorly-attested (in English sources) Spanish-language "Chino Puertoriqueno" or Chinese-language "Huayi Bodoligeren" ("Puerto Rican people of Chinese descent")
Conflicts with existing usage:
- I have not yet found any examples
Not sure:
- Vietnamese-language Hoa is used instead of Chinese-language "Yue Nan Hua Qiao" or "Ethnic Chinese in Vietnam".
[edit] Ethnic group name first or nationality first? Preferably neither.
Contrary to popular belief, there is no definitive rule in the English language about whether the ethnic group name or the nationality should come first when talking about the name of ethnic groups. Furthermore, Wikipedia does not seek to establish such a rule, since Wikipedia, being an encyclopedia, is only descriptive, not prescriptive.
The preponderance of one form or another is not a matter of some groups of people having a poor command of English and then "wrongly" choosing to call themselves in a certain way; native English speakers came up with both Chinese Americans for ethnic Chinese in America and British Chinese for ethnic Chinese in Britain. A form which may seem more "intuitive" to one Wikipedian may in contrast be less intuitive to other Wikipedians. Because of this potential for conflict, it's better to entirely avoid usages of the type "Kneebonese Elbonians" or "Elbonian Kneebonese" unless they are extremely well-established in reputable sources, since no one will be sure whether they refer to Kneebonese in Elbonia or Elbonians and Kneebonia.
If there is an ongoing debate with no consensus being reached over whether a page should be called "Elbonian Kneebonese" or "Kneebonese Elbonian", that suggests that both of those names should be redirects to "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" (unless there is also a large population of "Ethnic Kneebonese in Elbonia").
Matches with existing usage:
- Chinese American is preferred only because it is the most widely known English alternative by at least an order of magnitude. It is NOT true to say that Wikipedia uses this form because it is "more grammatically correct" or "more intuitive" than "American Chinese", "Ethnic Chinese in America", "Meiji Huaren" (Chinese for "Chinese people with US nationality"), "Huayi Meiguoren" (Chinese for "Americans of Chinese descent"), etc.
- Thai Chinese is preferred for the same reason
- Mongolian Chinese was moved to Ethnic Mongolians in China to avoid the confusion described above, as Mongolian Chinese is not a widely used term.
- Chinese Israeli was moved to Chinese in Israel for the same reason.
[edit] Cases where both countries have sent immigrants to each other
If there are significant populations of both Elbonians in Kneebonia and Kneebonese in Elbonia, the actual articles should be "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" and "Ethnic Kneebonese in Elbonia". Strongly avoid forms like "Elbonian Kneebonese" or "Kneebonese Elbonian" to describe either population unless you can prove that the term is used exclusively to refer to only one of the groups (a mere Google search comparing numbers is not sufficient in this case; you must give actual citations of usage, preferably from printed scholarly books, rather than just online news articles). Those pages should be disambiguation pages pointing to both "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" and "Ethnic Kneebonese in Elbonia".
Matches with existing usage:
- We have pages Ethnic Chinese in Korea (rather than Hwagyo, not widely used in English) and Ethnic Koreans in China (rather than chaoxianzu, not widely used in English)
- Chinese Korean and Korean Chinese are disambiguation pages which point to both those pages (and the linguistic term Sino-Korean as well).
Conflicts with existing usage:
- Vietnamese Chinese and Chinese Vietnamese both redirect to Hoa even though there are both ethnic Chinese in Vietnam as well as ethnic Vietnamese in China (the Kinh people, about whom no Wikipedia page exists). However, the Kinh people are a much smaller population, so that usage might not actually conflict with this policy.
[edit] Reverse/onward migration
Another problem is that of secondary migration, that is, ethnic Elbonians born and raised in Kneebonia who then immigrate back to their ancestors' country of Elbonia, or to a third country . No such pages exist in Wikipedia currently, but there are several candidate topics (Japanese Brazilians going back to Japan, ethnic Koreans in China going to Korea, ethnic Chinese in Korea going to Los Angeles, etc.). I would suggest calling those pages "Immigration of ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia to Elbonia" (though somewhat unwieldy), but we shouldn't probably shouldn't set any policy in stone until some actual articles get created.
[edit] The meaning of "ethnic"
"Elbonians in Kneebonia" may be an Elbonian expatriates, exchange students, etc. "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" are a subcategory of Elbonians in Kneebonia: generally, this refers to be people of Elbonian ethnic descent, but permanently resident in Kneebonia and having no formal connection to Elbonia. A page about "Elbonians in Kneebonia" should include information about the expat Elbonians as well as the local Elbonians. An article about "Ethnic Elbonians in Kneebonia" should only include information about the local Elbonians, not the expat Elbonians.
An article called "Ethnic Elbonian" should only talk about Elbonians outside of Elbonia, not Elbonians inside of Elbonia, since the latter could just be referred to as plain old "Elbonian", "Elbonian people", or whatever. "Elbonian people" should primarily address the topic of Elbonians inside of Elbonia, also possibly with a minor section about Elbonians outside of Elbonia, linking to the main article page "Ethnic Elbonian".
In cases where the Elbonians do not have their own nation-state, but do have a historic homeland in some country, say Armland, Elbonians in Armland should be referred to as "Elbonian people", while Elbonians outside Armland should be referred to as "Ethnic Elbonian".
Importantly, this policy matches with existing academic discussion of two major diasporas, those of Chinese and Germans (usually referred to as "ethnic Chinese"/"overseas Chinese", and "ethnic Germans"/"Volga Germans", though that does not apply to all Germans overseas).
Matches with existing usage:
- Ethnic German, exclusively about Germans with foreign citizenships who were born outside of Germany, e.g. the Volga Germans.
- Ethnic Chinese, which redirects to Overseas Chinese
- Ethnic Koreans in China
- Ethnic Chinese in Korea
- Ethnic Mongolians in China
- Han Chinese in Mongolia, which discusses both expatriate Chinese businessmen as well as local Chinese people, and so is not called "Ethnic Chiense in Mongolia".
- Chinese in Israel, which discusses guestworkers as well as permanent immigrants (Chinese believers in Judaism) and their descendants, and so is not called "Ethnic Chinese in Israel".
- Chinese in Singapore
Conflicts with existing usage:
- Ethnic Japanese, a redirect to Japanese people. Note however that there is currently no article specifically devoted to Japanese people outside of Japan.
- Ethnic Korean, a redirect to Korean people, though it has been proposed on Talk:Korean people to make that page exclusively about Koreans outside of Korea instead.
[edit] The meaning of "preponderant"
Preponderant means not just having a clear numerical majority (60%+), but also having wide currency (thousands of hits, not just a few tens or hundreds). Decisions about article names should not be made on the basis of one form having 194 Google hits while another only has 92. That would suggest that neither form being searched for is correct, and it would thus be better to give the article a descriptive title.
[edit] Full disclosure
CaliforniaAliBaba, the author of this policy proposal, has edited some pages, or moved or created pages, or advocated that pages be moved, to comply with his own biases (from which this proposal arises), including:
