Talk:Natural gas

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Natural gas is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

Contents 1 Use in bunsen burners? 2 Methane 3 Energy 4 Chemistry/Physical Properties 5 Pressure 6 Future use as a fuel 7 Too US oriented!! 8 Consistency 9 Difference between Natural Gas and Compressed Natural Gas? 10 Landfill gas 11 Link "Explosive Limit" 12 Poorly written addition to Natural gas vehicles section 13 depth for LNG terminals 14 U.S. annual usage bit broken. 15 The Carboniferous 16 Fact Template and Reason 17 Needs history section 18 How is it measured for sale? 19 US gas "crisis 20 Helium 21 Aviation

[edit] Use in bunsen burners?

Natural gas is frequently used in bunsen burners. Can someone write a bit for the Uses section regarding this?

Also, can anyone find information regarding the heat of a natural gas flame, or even the combustion point of natural gas? It would probably be a good addition to this article. Goyston 14:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Methane

The reactions described near the top are the combustion of methane; they should be labeled as such and moved to a more appropriate page. Jorge Stolfi 05:59, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The article also concentrates too much on Methane which is but one of the family of gases. In practice along with Methane are Ethane, Butane, Propane and other products.

No, Natural Gas, the topic of this page, is almost exclusively methane. The other gases are by-products of oil refining.

Not quite. Natural gas is often found with significant amounts of ethane, propane and butane -- if there are enough of these other species present, they are liquified and sold as seperate product (LPG). There are refinery processes that also produce LPG from oil - it is a product, not a by-product (see Cracking).81.243.67.189 02:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I was expecting to find its share in world's energy supply...anyone?--Chealer 11:13, 2004 Nov 9 (UTC)

[edit] Energy

Since the main use of natural gas is as a fuel, the energy section desparately needs expansion. How much fuel does an average house consume in a day/month/year? How much power does a single stove burner produce (watts)? What about a gas furnace? What about its use in transportation? Is it always used in liquified form there? Is it always gasified before being burned? What is required for vehicle conversions? What are the advantages/disadvantages vs. gasoline/diesel fuel? How about a pie chart showing U.S. usage: percentage household, vehicle, glasswork, commercial, industrial (chemical industry), etc?

Where do we get 1031 as the number of BTU in a cubic foot. I belive this cahnges from week to week depending on the constituents of the supply

The remarks about greenhouse gas production are not consistent. All hydrocarbons (natural gas, LPG, gasoline...) produce water and CO2 when they burn. CO2 produced by burning natural gas is not any shorter lived than that produced by burning oil or coal.This paragraph also has very specific non-obvious details that need citations -- like amount of methane produced annually by termites.81.243.67.189 02:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the statistics about methane production by termites and such until a reference is provided. I removed the contradiction tag because I believe that it was added in error. The article means that less CO2 is produced for a given amount of energy (carbon molecules/Joule for example), not that carbon dioxide is different depending on the fuel. -- Kjkolb 06:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph was not worded well and that made it appear contradictory to me. I have taken a stab at clarifying the paragraph and putting the info into the appropriate sections.81.243.67.189 15:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chemistry/Physical Properties

This page definitely needs some technical specifics, such as the methane, propane, etc. pages have. For instance what is the composition by percentage (ranges)? Is this before processing or what is piped to consumers (perhaps removal of propane, etc.)? Why is it used vs. methane or propane? What is the cost vs. methane, ethane, etc? What temperatures does it produce when burned in air? What about when burned in oxygen?

NG is specified by its bulk heating value, not chemical composition. This is done by the Wobbe index and as such, nearly any light HC species (C3 and under) can be diluted to match methane as long as it does not condense at the pipeline pressure. For example, LPG can be dilluted 60/40 with air to make synthetic natural gas, used for peak demand times. Because of this fungability, prices for LPG track NG. Ethane is typically more valuable as a feedstock for petrochemical industry.

The reason propane and butane are removed from commercial pipelines is pressures typical of these lines (30 Bar) would cause these heavier components to condense. NG pipelines cannot tolerate liquids (two phases in any pipeline cause "slugging") so these condensing species are removed. I think that we should stick with renewable energy.

[edit] Pressure

Combustion of one cubic metre of commercial quality natural gas yields 38 MJ (10.6 kWh). Equivalently, one cubic foot of natural gas produces just over 1000 British Thermal Units (BTUs).

Volumes such as "cubic metre" and "cubic foot" should include pressure units as well. Quick googling turns up that a "perfect"-burn of methane should release 890.8kJ/mol of energy. The pressure could be derived from this calculation.

Pressures for such volumes are standard atmospheric pressure (and temperature). See Standard cubic foot

[edit] Future use as a fuel

Many politicians and prominent figures in North America have spoken publicly about the looming natural gas crisis. (emphasis added)

Huh??? Is this NPOV? Brianjd

I never understood the problem people have with the idea of non-renewable resources running out. Isn't it indeed a "looming crisis" if we are fundamentally dependent upon a fuel which is finite? 24.215.253.143 03:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This site needs more picture. I am doing a project for school and need more pictures for natural gas.

[edit] Too US oriented!!

absolutely...

sadly, a rising problem with wikipedia entries

That's because the article is just ripped from naturalgas.org, an industry biased site.

If we're talking about the NA gas crisis, you should remember that the US takes up a fairly good portion of the continent, which makes this more reasonable than if it was a US-based view on the war in Iraq or something else like that.

So, I added the Russian LPG specifications:/KH Flottorp/

LPG - Propane : Butane = 50%-50% (Separated)
SPECIFICATION (Butane)
Property Units Test Method Value
Ethane mol % G.C 0.08 max.
Propane mol % G.C 2 max.
Total – C4 mol % G.C 97.5 min.
Total – C3 mol % G.C 0.82 max.
Sp.Gr.@ (60oF/ 60oF) --- ASTM D-2598 To Be Reported
Copper Corrosion --- ASTM D-1838 No. 1a max.
Total Sulfide wt.ppm (Based On ASTM D-3246) 30 max.
Hydrogen Sulfide vol.ppm ASTM D-2420 / DRAGER Nil
Vapor Press@(100 oF) Psig ASTM D-2598 70 max.
Water Content vol.ppm Shaw Dew Point 10 max.
Residue on Evaporation vol % ASTM D-2158 0.05 max

SPECIFICATION (Propane)
Property Units Test Method Value
Ethane mol % G.C 0.4 max.
Propane mol % G.C 98 min.
Butane mol % G.C 1.4 max.
Pentanes & Heavier mol % G.C 0.01 max.
Copper Corrosion --- ASTM D-1838 No. 1a max.
Hydrogen Sulfide vol.ppm ASTM D-2420 / DRAGER 5 max.
Sp.Gr.@ (60oF/ 60oF) --- ASTM D-2598 To Be Reported
Sulfur (Volatile) wt.ppm (Based On ASTM D-3246) 30 max.
Vapor Pressure@(100 oF) psig ASTM D-2598 200 max.
Water Content --- ASTM D-2713 pass

/end --15:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)~~/

Then LNG Composition (from a contract to deliver):

LNG – LIQUIDFIED NATURAL GAS SPECIFICATION
A. GROSS HEATING VALUE (VOLUME BASED):-
MINIMUM: 1050Btu/SCF.
MAXIMUM: 1170Btu/SCF
B. HYROCARBON COMPOSITION AND NITROGEN CONTENT WITHIN THE FOLLOWING RANGE:
METHANE: 85.00 MOL % MINIMUM
BUTANES AND HEAVIER: 2.0 MOL % MAXIMUM
PENTANES AND HEAVIER 0.10 MOL % MAXIMUM
NITROGEN: 1.00 MOL % MAXIMUM
C. IMPURITIES WITH THE FOLLOWING RANGE:
HYDROGEN SULPHIDE: 4.8MG/Nm3 maximum
TOTAL SULPHUR: 28.0MG/Nm3 maximum
Solids and other impurities: None as such quantities as shall interfere with the receipt and transportation of LNG, or the use of LNG as natural gas.
Purity varies 90-99% and also up 100%.
D. Temperature : Minus 160 –162O C. 2 Ф (minus 260 degree F)
E. Transportation Pressure: Atmospheric
F. Colourless, Odourless, Non corrosive, Non-toxic.
--KH Flottorp 16:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

This page says natural gas will peak around 2030; the Hubbert peak page says natural gas will peak between 2010 and 2020 -- with a reference: "Bentley, 2002" ("Global oil & gas depletion: an overview. Energy Policy 30, 189–205"). However, upon skimming that paper, I didn't see anything that decisively said "natural gas, 2010-2020", though you can get approximately that by looking at one of the graphs.

I suggest we come up with a single estimate for peak natural gas, to be used in both Wikipedia articles, that can be backed up with a reference. Anybody know where 2030 came from? (It was added by the "15:08, 1 September 2005 194.204.127.7 (→Power generation)" edit.)

The "Peaking" is a requirement for the US market economic analysts to keep things so simple that even they can understand it. It is a complete nonsense, as using new recovery technology allows re-opening old reservoirs and explore compartments that still can hold as much as 10 times what has been recovered. Here you have numerous reference - E,g, Statoil, Sector 51 in Lago Maracaibo is producing 15 times what PDVSA produced. Applying the same technology in Iran and surrounding countries will provide more gas than the theorists that writes books can guess./KH Flottorp/

[edit] Difference between Natural Gas and Compressed Natural Gas?

Please clarify what is difference between Natural Gas and Compressed Natural Gas?, what are its compoisition?,All Natural Gases can be used as CNG in vehicle?, or there are some process to make it compressed natural gas?

How the calorific value of Natural Gas changes with composition? How it changes with change in methane concentration and so on?

This is being currently litigated at FERC, some LNG is "hot" with BTU content at 1100-1300 per Mcf.Racepacket 16:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I think details of these questions are provided in the relevant articles. If not, please do put in a request for them on their talk pages.--ChrisJMoor 02:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

All Oil and Gas fields have their own composition. The gas is taken to a gas plant - usually a refinery, blended with refinery gases and what we know as LNG and LPG is produced. The Methane, Ethane and Propane content is just the first 3 "natural gases" contained. The less methane and more propane, the more energy per MT (see remark in article). /KH Flottorp/—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Khflottorp (talk • contribs) 14:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Landfill gas

I think that landfill gas should redirect to biogas instead of this article. I would classify landfill gas a sub-type of biogas, but even if they are considered separate, they have more in common with each other than natural gas. If no one objects, I will change it and incorporate the content from this article into biogas. -- Kjkolb 13:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link "Explosive Limit"

I notice that Heron has recently corrected the case on Lower Explosive Limit. It turns out that there is an article, Explosive limit which describes "Lower Explosive Limit" (and indeed is redirected from that article. It also describes the "Upper Explosive Limit". I think there should be a link here. Whilst not wanting to over-link, it seems inappropriate to link one and not the other, so I will link both.--Duckbill 22:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poorly written addition to Natural gas vehicles section

On 12:26, 25 January 2006, Gerfriedc made an addition to the Natural gas vehicles section.

It had two spelling mistakes, was not marked up in a way which would display sensibly, and did not fit in with the tone of the section.

I have removed the addition. Obviously feel free to re-make the change if the three issues above can be addressed.

--Duckbill 01:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] depth for LNG terminals

LNG terminals require a very spacious—at least 38.5m deep—harbor, as well as being sheltered from wind and waves. An anon user (220.135.254.125) changed meters to feet here. I do not know if this was just a dislike of meters, vandalism or based on accurate information. I have reverted to original version until some evidence is provided. However this whole article should now be improved by adding references.--NHSavage 07:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

http://www.energy.ca.gov/lng/faq.html says "LNG carriers are up to 1000 feet long, and require a minimum water depth of 40 feet when fully loaded.". So perhaps 38.5 ft is a better match than 38.5 m. Duckbill 11:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I've edited it to 40 feet, mentioned the source, put in an appropriate-precision metric conversion, and made it conform to WP:MOSNUM. The source might still want to be linked in "External links" though. Duckbill 12:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. annual usage bit broken.

The bit about U.S. annual usage says:

A million decatherms is roughly a billion cubic feet of natural gas. The U.S. uses roughly 60,000 billion cubic feet, or 60 tera decatherms (TDth), each year.

The first sentence talks about a rough unit of measurement which is either:

• "A million decatherms", or
• "a billion cubic feet"

I'll call that unit a "lump".

Then it says that the U.S. uses "roughly 60,000 billion cubic feet", which would be 60,000 lumps.

Then it says "or 60 tera decatherms", which would be:

60 × 10¹² decatherms =

60 × 10⁶ × 10⁶ decatherms =

60 × 10⁶ × million decatherms =

60 × 10⁶ × lumps =

60,000,000 lumps

So the two sentences are at odds with each other by a factor of 1,000.

We could really do with a source, and that source should be checked for consistency.

In the meantime, we can't say which figure is accurate, so they should both go.

Duckbill 12:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Carboniferous

Says Also, natural gas, when burned, produces much less carbon dioxide

than more carboniferous fuel sources, such as coal.

By "carboniferous" I suppose what is meant is "containing carbon". However follow the link and you land in The Carboniferous. That is the Carboniferous which "is a major division of the geologic timescale that extends from the end of the Devonian ... to the beginning of the Permian ..." I'm sure that something's amiss. Should the link be redirected the article

to Carbon or is there a more appropriate article for "carboniferous" to link to? For the time being I'm redirectng it to Carbon. Jimp 16:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I am fairly sure what was meant was Carbonaceous so I have changed it to this.--NHSavage 22:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)gas is a bitch.

[edit] Fact Template and Reason

I haven't edited herein in months, and don't have the time now. I made this comment along with changed text: '/* Sources */ Add FACT template and cite [Town gas], paragraph was to narrowly focused and ignores reality. Fact questioned is whether [Coal gas] is manufatured or classed as natural'

• Some one needs to decide whether coal gas is properly categorized as natural gas, as the fact template challanges. IIRC, it certainly should not be, as is manufactured... with a lot of messy by-products as those discussed directly in the previous post. I have no objsection to including such coal gas as an alternative energy source, only to the classification as a natural gas.

Best wishesFrankB 17:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

To be honest I think it is clear that although natural gas replaced town gas in many places they are different. I have made an edit to this effect.--NHSavage 22:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs history section

This article needs a section with the history of its discovery, etc. (Such as, which brought me here, the discovery of helium in natural gas in 1903/1905). —Centrx→Talk 19:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How is it measured for sale?

Oil is measured in barrells and we are always hearing the price of the barrell has risen to $70 etc. How is gas measured on the commodity market?Schnizzle 10:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to vary on the location. Most natural gas is used in the region that it is produced in. For example, very little natural gas comes to the U.S. from Europe, Asia or the Middle East. This is because it is primarily transported by pipelines. To be economically transported by ship, it must be liquefied, which requires extensive and expensive infrastructure. It only accounts for a percent or two of the natural gas used in the U.S., last time I checked. Therefore, each region can use their own measurements. The U.S. uses measurements like million BTUs and million cubic feet of gas (the content of natural gas varies, so you have to know the heat content of the gas to convert between the measurements). Therms, which are 100,000 BTUs, are also used in the U.S. Decatherms are 1,000,000 BTUs and they are used as a base for measurements like a thousand decatherms and a million decatherms. Countries that use the metric system probably use million cubic meters and Gigajoules to measure natural gas. The latter seems to be especially popular in Canada. It might be because of the extensive usage of therms, another measure of energy, in the U.S. That way, you just convert decatherms to Gigajoules. In Europe and Asia, the searches I did came up with cubic meters being used. Perhaps they just use cubic meters and note the heat content, like 1.1 times the heat content of a reference number for natural gas, rather than using a unit of energy. My gas company gives the number of cubic feet used and then multiplies by the relative energy content of the gas that month to give the number of therms, which is what they charge by. -- Kjkolb 12:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry again: US sided. The measurement in the US for things is in of what fits into a shoe, or a suited implement whereupon someone can be flogged, some odd measurement of heating capability or cents to a can of a gallon (Petrol). In the rest of the world the oil is traded in metric tons (MT) with the single exception of spot market crude. As for gas, the global unit is as Kjkolb says, Metric tons - MT and number of BTU is found in the specification of the gas - as energy content. Since not all gas is used for energy, the price is the same per MT. Some oil is also sold with energy content specified in the specification. I have amended the specification of Russian 50:50 LPG - and someone better in chemistry is asked to make the conversion. See: http://www.ft.com/marketdata/commodities ---KH Flottorp 15:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US gas "crisis

This expansive and specific American section fails to explain why the GLOBAL fossil fuel supply problems are massively more pressing or important in US than elsewhere.

A biased and unnecessary section. I propose a serious edit to leave a cut down section on the global challlenges fossil fuel depletion raises. --Brideshead 19:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helium

Where does the helium in natural gas come from? Is it the decay of uranuim and stuff? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Puddytang (talk • contribs) 04:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Helium is not a "natural gas". Maybe the name should be "hydrocarbon gases", the name goes back to chemistry, where these are the "natural" gases that is the clue to bio-chemistry. If ability to hold energy identifies "natural gases" then the best is hydrogen. The discussion in the main article is of mixed quality. --KH Flottorp 15:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aviation

There seems to be a direct contradiction between what is said here and what is said on the page linked at the bottom http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?SectionID=82&Page=1.

Compare:

" (wiki) Russian aircraft manufacturer Tupolev is ... and seeks to develop LNG and hydrogen variants of the Tu-204 and Tu-334 passenger aircraft, and also the Tu-330 cargo aircraft. It claims that at current market prices, an LNG-powered aircraft would cost 5000 roubles less to operate per ton..."

and

"(the link) However extremely high price of liquid hydrogen makes its commercial use impossible for a long time."

--193.190.253.129 21:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)