Talk:Norouz

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This article was nominated for deletion on 21/3/2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 Nowruz 2 Pashtu and Kurdish are NOT just a virant of Persian!!! 3 Noruz vs. Akitu 4 Jam Shid 5 Expansion 6 merger of Näwrüz into Norouz 7 Newroz 8 suggested rephrase of lead sentence 9 Dispute 10 Suggested split 11 Eid festival 12 Merge 13 Rephrase the title 14 Deletion 15 Suggested compromise 16 Disputeing the vandal merging 17 Peace settlement 18 Possible version for Norouz 19 Norouz is an old Persian word 20 Relevance of Bahai fate 21 Kurdish section 22 Chahar shanbe soori 23 IPA pronunciation 24 Baba Norouz / Hajji Firouz 25 Persian Vs Iranian 26 Merge 27 Simple solution 28 Haft Sin 29 "Last thursday night" ceremony ... 30 Merge 31 Etymology 32 THe Tajiks in China? 33 Haji Firuz! 34 LOKK THAT VIDEO ABOUT NEWROZ IN TURKEY 35 Hier bitte etwas posten, das beweist, dass das Kurdische Volk unterdrückt wird!

[edit] Nowruz

(The proper spelling of the Iranian New Year)

Upon the recommendation of prominent Iranian scholars, most Iranian societies and foundations outside Iran, Iranian Cultural Heritage Organization and Cultural Research Bureau (Tehran), and upon the approval of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), and most importantly, for the consistency within the International Iranian Community, we should all write the name of the Iranian New Year with this spelling:

Nowruz

—Remark by 128.230.136.12 on 10 March 2006

(Essentially same text as above was added to main article also.)

I have removed this as it was unreferenced and not really needed in the intro. --Kash 15:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all Nowruz is way off. That's not even how we pronounce it in Persian. The closest things are Norouz and Norooz. Between the two, Norooz has been accepted by more people, has over way more Google hits and is simple simpler.Hooman 17:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Response: Maybe some committees decided they liked that spelling, but spelling is a hard thing to impose on people, and that spelling doesn't appear to be particularly popular. As I understand it, typically, in English, dictionaries and such reference material are supposed to just document the common spellings that people use — not try to force people to follow declarations made by committees. Also note that not all official sources agree, since a child was ejected from the 2006 Scripps National Spelling Bee for not coming up with "nauruz" (see trivia section in main article). For example, today (17 June 2006) Google shows 183,000 hits for "norooz", 113,000 hits for "nawruz", 106,000 hits for "norouz", 76,000 hits for "noruz", 25,000 hits for "nowrouz", 890 hits for "nauruz" (185 of which also contain "spelling bee"), etc.

—Wookipedian 03:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pashtu and Kurdish are NOT just a virant of Persian!!!

They are independent languages, unintelligible for Persians, although they have some shared roots with persian. Heja Helweda 19:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Norouz is not only celebrated by Iranians but also all the peoples who were part of the historical "Persian" family. This ancient group has been divided into many new ethnic groups, which today are different from Iranians but still retain some aspects of their Persian ancestory. These groups include the Kurds, Pasthuns, Tajiks and the people of both Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Not only do these groups celebrate persian holidays like Norouz and Yelda, their language is related to Persian. In fact, Tajiki and Dari (the offical languages of Tajikistan and Afghanistan) are just different names for Persian; while Pashtu and Kurdish are just a virant of Persian. Perhaps one day these diverese groups, can remember there common ancestory and unite to form a once again mighty Persian empire, much to the dismay of their enemies and corrupt neighbours.

Norouz isnt only celebrated by the peoples who were part of the historical "Persian" family, but by its originators of this festival, the Assyrians & Chaldeans

--138.130.32.229 12:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

What are your talking about? First of all it's called the Iranian family, wich persians are a part of. Persians were not a common ancestor to theis peoples. In fact the Kurds ancestors where only partially aryan(iranian). The kurds ancestors are various indo-european peoples who settled the kurdish mountains long before the aryans came to this area. Acording to the anatolian-theory and new scientific evidence, the kurdish mountains was were the indo-europeans originated. When later the indo-european aryan people came to this area the kurds were homogenized and aryanized. So to say that the kurds are iranian is only partially true but to say that the kurds are the offspring of the perians is very wrong and to say that Kurdish is "just a variant of Persian" is VERY wrong.

Sorry but you are confusing the matter. Just say all Iranian peoples are not Persian just like how all Slavic peoples are not Russians. Persians are Iranian, but not the only type, just like how Russians are Slavic, but not the only type.By the way what you are saying about Kurds not being Aryan is wrong. Genetic testing shows both Kurds and Persians have an Aryan base in their genetic structure in addition to mixing with indegenous races that lived in the Iranian plateau and Anatolia such as peoples similar to the Dravidans of India.

[edit] Noruz vs. Akitu

It is known that Darius The Great accepted Akitu festive during the capture of Babylon under the Persian empire. This was celebrated by the Babylonians & Assyrians on what would be March 21 on the Gregorian Calender. The festival ran for 12 days until April 1st thus giving it the modern name "Kha B'Nissan" (in Assyrian Kha=1, Nissan=April) and is still celebrated by Assyrians and Chaldeans (Ancient Babylonians) today.

--138.130.32.229 12:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jam Shid

"Nowrouz was invented by pre history king of Persia whom is now called Jam or JamShid he may have been iranian king almost 7000 years ago for more info refer to the book "Nowrouz Jam Shid a 395 well documented page book by Dr. Javad Broumand and www.zeebad.persianblog.com"

Could someone verify and/or clean this up? —Ashley Y 04:22, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

---

That depends. Jam Shid is also held by modern Zoroastrians to have been the original prophet of Zoroastrianism (as well as the first man, also known as Yima), Zarathushtra himself only repeating the message several thousand years later. It should be noted that for Persian Zoroastrians, the progenitor of persian identity itself was Jam Shid. I think "clearing it up" to add Jamshid would require significant revisions to major parts of the article. --Venerable Bede 21:46, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. In the Avesta he is Yima Khshaeta[1]. Vendidad, Fargard 2, says he is the Zoroastrian "Noah", but he is not the first man. Gayomard is. The 7000 years thing though. Honestly, I mean really. That's just a tad pre-history. But speaking of the historical Noruz, swastikas have been uncovered. Someone should document this and add it perhaps. The Swastika, of course, has nothing to do with Zoroastrianism, but with the common Aryan ancestry with the Indo-Aryans (Indians). Khirad 08:53, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Jamshid was an Iranian king but not of Persia, but of whole Iranzamin! --ShapurAriani 20:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

OK, I'm not actually Persian nor have I even witnessed this, so I'm sure there are errors... —Ashley Y 03:58, 2005 Mar 13 (UTC)

The biggest oversight is the ommission of Hajji Ferouz, the "Santa Claus" of Iran.--Aufidius 00:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not actually a Persian, but in Ismaili Muslim Community Nauroz is celebrated as a religious festival. An egg is syombolised for the new year.

[edit] merger of Näwrüz into Norouz

I know there are many cultures that celebrate it, but Norouz is more commonly known for being persian (Iranian) and I think they should be kept separate.

I think they should merge. Cuñado - Talk 22:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

But why? They are very similar, but a bit different.

Näwrüz redirected here, the contents were already present so nothing is changed. Kaveh 12:24, 8 December 2005 (UTC)Milk

See Persian means "Fars" or "Farsi." It does not mean Irani so when you use it instead of Iranian or Irani it excludes other Iranians like Kurds who celebrate Norouz all over Kurdistan. That is why they get offended. Iranians never refered to Iran as Persia either and always as Iran. Persians are a sub-group of Iranians just like Kurds, Lurs, and Balouch.

[edit] Newroz

I suggest to move the page to Newroz because the later spelling is more common than Nozouz or anything else. Thank you.

Diyako Talk + 21:49, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

That's the original word, norouz. All the other spellings should be redirected to here. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.105.18.230 (talk • contribs) .

The "Newroz" page should be added to Norouz, as the basic principles of the celebration are the same. The former is an ethnic variation of the main Norouz celebration, just as there is a section on the Afghan variant, or indeed, even Bahai, under the heading of "Norouz". The celebration is an Iranian one, which with the break-up of the country through the centuries, has become a "Pan-Iranian" festivity. So it is celebrated in all countries where the are or have been Iranians, such as Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, etc. Kurds are not different to the rest of Iranians in that they make up one of the basic elements from which the country was made up over two and a half millenia ago, just as Brittany is a part of France, Yorkshire is a part of UK, California is a part of USA, Bavaria is a part of Germany, and so on. Each has a slight variation in their local cultures and traditions, but that does not make them a separate nation. The empire was founded by a half-Persian/half Mede king who unified the people living in the region into one nation. The Kurdish separatists, just like the Azeri, Arab, and Afghan separatists before them have ulterior motives, often with the support, backing and provocation of foreign powers who want to break up the nation. The break up of the country is a backward step towards the time when we were tribes fighting with our neighbours over scraps.

There is only one Christmas, there is only one Hannukah, there is only one Diwali. Let there be only one Norouz, and may it forever be Pirouz (victor)!

[edit] suggested rephrase of lead sentence

On 16:20, 23 February 2006 Shervink changed

Norouz ... is the traditional Persian festival

to

Norouz ... is the traditional Iranian festival

with the comment: Iranian is more accurate, since many Iranians who celebrate Norouz would not necessarily describe themselves as Persians as well.

Actually, I see the new version as being the more inaccurate of the two, but this could be a matter of semantics: in Iran itself, Persia is apparently considered to be restricted to Pars (Fars), wheras outside Iran, Persia is equated with everything that once was the Persian Empire (Iranians who live outside Iran do this too).

But:

1. It may well be that Iranians who celebrate Norouz don't consider themselves Persians, I don't see how that factoid is relevant to this article. In other words: That Norouz is also celebrated by Iranians who are non-Persians is not a reason why Norouz is not a traditional Persian festival.
2. The second paragraph clearly states: the festival of Norouz is celebrated in many countries that were territories of, or influenced by, the Persian Empire.
3. Persia existed long before Iran began to be considered an actual geographical area, and almost two thousand years before the term Iranian became associated with national affiliation. Until (relatively) recent history, Iran wasn't a state at all, but a people. Jamshid ruled the "lands of the Airyane" (Avestan Airyane, "noble").

Incidentally, Jamshid, who is also said to have introduced Norouz, is a character of Persian mythology - the name of which has nothing to do with the region of Pars (or Fars), as the Greeks used it, but with the the concept of the Persian empire, which was a vast area. Moreover, the Shahnameh is Persian literature, in the Persian language.

Suggestion: rephrase the sentence

Norouz ... is the traditional <xxx> festival of (the first day of) spring.

to

''Norouz ... is an ancient festival of (the first day of) spring celebrated throughout the Caucasus, particularly in Iran, where the festivities last for 12 days.

-- Fullstop 12:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It has the strongest significance, if I can argue that in the Caucasus, even more so than Iran. I also want the clear indication that it is an Iranian cultural and historic trait that is embedded in different Iranian socities. Less emphasis on Persian. To be honest it was the Mede (the ancestors of the Kurds) who developed it. It is Iranian not Persian. We can not override the broader term Iranian with Persian. It is like calling the USSR by Russia, when it reality it was more thanone state. Iranians have always called Iran by that name. Persia is what the Greeks wrongly refered to Iran from the name of one of its provinces and tribes. Even Cyrus and Darius refered to the Empire as Iran or the Iranian Empire. Our termology must be correct. It usage of terms like 'Persian' which are very problamatic and used by seperatists and foreigners (i.e. Britain and America) who try and divide Iran up through manipulation of facts and history.

1. cite your source(s) please [with respect to "it was the Mede who developed it"]
2. please suggest an alternate lead sentence with which you would be happy.

-- Fullstop 16:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

Newroz existed thousands years before Iranian invaders. Especially among babylons, Akkads, and other non-Iranian peoples of Middle East. The article almost claims it is originally Iranian!Diyako Talk + 23:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

And where did you get this obsecure piece of information from? How can this Iranian religion have existed before Iranian 'invaders'? Do you take medication which you sometimes forget? --Kash 00:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Until you provide academic sources for this claim, I am removing the dispute tag. --Kash 00:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a source. --ManiF 00:23, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps everyone could be made happy if everyone reads #suggested rephrase of lead sentence, and made alternate suggestions. *sigh* Can't we have constructive co-operation instead of more "I am right" dogma? :) -- Fullstop 17:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested split

It seems that the Persian and the Kurdish Newroz are two quite different things. What about splitting it up in two articles? Biji Newroz! Bertilvidet 15:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, You are right. besides it has its own long material and soon will be expanded totally. Diyako Talk + 16:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eid festival

Eid festival:

In Turkish, these celebrations are called Bayram. Bayram means feast in Turkish and usually in international community (especailly non Muslims) bayram (Turkish) is used other than Arabic forms.

In modern Iran, Eid may refer to more holidays, including Nowrooz, Ghadir Khom, and the birthday of some Shia Imams.

If this is true the claim that "Nowruz ... is a public holiday in Turkey, where it is called Bayram in Turkish and Newroz in Kurdish" in this article is probably not true. According to [2] the name is NEVRUZ --Fasten 17:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes and Nevruz which already I have created a stub for it is totally different from the Iranian version, although both are celebrated for the comming of spring. Diyako Talk + 18:06, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

How is it.."TOTALLY DIFFERENT"? the link you have provided describes that its pretty much the same thing!

"Nevruz, a composite noun combining Nev (new) and Ruz (day), means new day and is a mythologic day celebrated as New Year’s Day by Turks living in Central Asia, Anatolian Turks and Persians. " --Kash 20:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

whatever the name is, norouse, nowruz, nourouse, nowroos, nevruz, newrose.. these all are the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.105.18.230 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Merge

I think it is a good idea --Kash 21:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Diyako, can you please explain why the Kurdish version of the holiday is so different that it needs its own article? We don't have an article about the Russian version of Christmas for example. --Khoikhoi 21:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Can I just quote Bertilvidet who suggested the Kurdish version should have its own page, now says in the other talk page [3]..

"I guess the history is the same, and I dont know if the current ways of celebrating it are the same among Kurds as among Persians. It would be OK for me if this article solely deals with political implications of the Kurdish celebrations of Newroz - in the case that the history, traditions and rites are the same." --Kash 21:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I am very honoured to be quoted here. But please dont take it for more than just my humble opinion. Newroz has a political/ethnical significance for Kurds (at least in Turkey) that makes it deserve its own artice. Bertilvidet 23:33, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the merge. Specially about Kurdish version since it is almost exactly the same. The minor differences, and they are minor, can be mentioned in a section in main page Norouz which is an Iranian (not Persian but Iranian) celebration. We can have section called Kurdish Version and differences are not going to be more than a few sentences!! having a separate page is useless since it is just repeating the same stuff. it is exactly as khoikhoi said, similar to having a christmas page for every christian coutnry.

Gol 22:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

The Kurds are in fact an Iranian people. So basically, it would be illogical not to merge the two articles together. Good idea Kash, I was thinking along those lines myself. As others have already mentioned, minor discrepancies (if we can call them discrepancies at all) can be noted in an individual subsection within the “Iranian Nowruz” framework. --QajarCoffee 23:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I've already explained everything. There are many things that despite of having some similarities but still are different and distinct from eachother; for example: Persians and Tajiks are very similar but they have their own articles because they are different. The Kurdish Newroz is not the same as Iranian Norouz and the article on Kurdish Newroz discusses the details on the Kurdish New Year. I do not think Iran and Iranian is a holy thinh that every Middle Eastern tradition should be indentified with it. I even accepted to mention the Kurdish Newroz on this article. Diyako Talk + 23:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

First, every one, let me congratulate you on the occasion of Norouz (with whatever spelling) and wish you a new year of health, prosperity, openness, truth, and new beginnings. This issue is so ridiculously clear there is absolutely no reason for discussion. Norouz is not a Kurdish festival, it is Iranian, and thus also celebrated by Kurds like all other Iranians. The article claiming it is merely Kurdish or Turkish must be deleted, and any attempt at preserving such a thing is nothing short of vandalism. It is a disgusting lie, it is essentially in no way different than for example saying George Bush is Japanese. Both are lies, and both would be vandalism. Articles such as this cannot destroy the ancient Iranian identity. The real thing we should be worried about here is the credibility of Wikipedia, which is decreasing day by day due to the nonsense added to it by a bunch of idiots. Shervink 23:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

Do you really find that those of us who find that the Kurdish celebration of Newroz deserves an article is a bunch of idiots? Then please clarify that, because I dont consider myself as an idiot. Maybe we can find a common settlement by corporating rather than islulting one another. Bertilvidet 23:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are neither misinformed, nor have bad intentions, the only alternative remaining is that you cannot think very clearly. Norouz is not Kurdish, it is Iranian, and a page claiming that it is only Kurdish is simply lying to the reader. There is nothing to discuss about that. (Or would you accept it if I created a page claiming Russia is a province of France? If I did, you would have every right to call me an idiot.) Shervink 23:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

OK, feel free to think that I am an idiot. But may I suggest you rather to use your efforts on solving the issue and finding a comrpomise than embarking on personal attacks. Bertilvidet 00:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

First the festival of spring is not only common among Iranians, there are many other nations who celebrate it, second I do not think all of the world belong to Russia or USA, you are claiming that this should only be Iranian. Third, Kurdish spring festival Kurdish Newroz is different than other nations festivals such as Iranian Norouz. I think we should be at least a litttle neutral and accept that this world is much bigger than Iran, and Iran and Iranians are just part of this world. Diyako Talk + 23:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Another thing for all Iranian friends: I certainly do not oppose the article Norouz. I'm even still ready to help to improve this article. (Norouz). Diyako Talk + 00:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So, you say Diyako, yet, you still disrupt this and other articles in order to inject some unsubstantiated Kurdish notions to these articles. At some point some actions can be called vandalism, e.g., erasing sections that come with scholary sources like that of Western scholars. Just be warned please that you need to be factual and work with others. Zmmz 00:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

If Norouz has political significance for Kurds, it can be mentioned in the Kurdistan page or the Kurdish people page or if we have a page related to Kurdish politics or even briefly in the Norouz article itself. Having separate articles creates the misunderstanding that Kurdish version is different while it is in fact identical. I have read the whole page and it is simply repeating the same stuff. One paragraph in the main page Norouz is enough to describe all the MINOR differences that exist.

thank you

Gol 09:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge, definitely. Kaveh 09:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Kaveh, you just unilateraly deleted an article here, including its disucssion. This is a very bad behavior, when we discuss the article hedre. May I suggest you to seek a settlement we can agree on and participate in the talk rather than destructing. Bertilvidet 10:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

If such destruction occurs again I am afraid we will have to protect the page. Hope it wil not be necesary. Bertilvidet 10:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Removing that fictitious article is removing vandalism, and Kaveh was very right to do so, his behavior is in accordance with WP policy which states that vandalism should be removed as soon as it is observed. Shervink 10:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

Kaveh actually didn't. I was wrong and I apology for my false accusations. Bertilvidet 11:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rephrase the title

Respected user Diyako

First and foremost Newroz píroz be!( newrozet pirozbad...now that wasnt very different) I understand your concern about trying to highlight what extra political significance newroz may have had for our kurdish brothers in turkey and syria and I am sure you do not believe that the two festivals are different its true the coming of spring may have had an important place in many ancient cultures but the philosophy of the merge is to embrace one's kurdish brother rather than say your christmass tree is yellow compared to my towering and tall one

Please your article on newroz is quite significant in that it actually proves that kurds are part of the Iranian family since the ban takes place in turkey and syria while the smoke over Bukan is visible in all its glory and the further from the capital of the islamic republic the more well preserved are the traditions.

But in order to respect the unity of it all rephrase your newroz as newroz and the recent kurdish history or newroz survival and politics wherein you could with the help of other editors emphasise how the survival of this festival amid attacks of cultural wipeout by khomeinism among other anti culture movements has become a symbol of an ancient unified heritage

Again a happy newroz to all kurds Lurs Azeris Baluchs Tajiks Gilakis Mazis and all the other glorious flowers on this beautiful carpet of human history and culture--Loosekarma 03:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Loosekarma, Diyako says: Kurds are not of the Iranian stock !!! He/she does not believe that Kurds are Iranian and that's why he/she is insisting on making a separate page. He/she has been involved in destroying Iranian pages for a long time. --Sina Kardar19:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

Why this is the Kurdish Newroz article that should be removed in the name of Merge?? why not the Iranian one? Diyako Talk + 10:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Because Norouz is Iranian, which includes all Kurdish customs. You wouldn't delete the article on christmas either just because it might be mentioned in the articles on Germany or France or whatever.Shervink 10:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

It would be appropriate for you to seek a consensus before altering a transliteration redirect page into a new article. In any event, your article including its history is at Norouz and the Kurds. And don't make this a political issue. Unless it is, in which case I suggest The Politics of Norouz as another title. Kaveh 10:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You even did not respect to the Kurdish title Newroz and just used the Iranian term norouz which by itself is another insult to Kurdish culture that should be in submission to the Iranian one. Diyako Talk + 10:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually like "Newroz" better myself, if you'd like we can gain consensus to rename this article. But for now it is called Norouz in Wikipedia. And there is no Iranian term at play here, Persian doesn't use this alphabet. Kaveh 10:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested compromise

Deat co-editors.

When I yesterday proposed a seperate article for the Kurdish celebrations I had no hint that it could create such an outcry. It is however highly disprutive and not fruitful for seeking consensus and a climate for willingness to compromise to repetively delete the article that is written about the Kurdish Newroz. May I suggest that we respect the sensitivities of our Iranian co-editors and rename the Newroz-article to "Kurdish Newroz celebrations" or limit it to "Newroz in Turkey". Bertilvidet 10:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So what about Syria? what about Iraq? what about most of other Kurds in Iran? Diyako Talk + 10:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point - and indeed newroz celebrations are also important for the Kurdish diaspora. My suggestion the is that we rename the current Newroz article to "Kurdish Newroz celebrations". But before we do that the Norouz article should be re-written so it reflects a broad and comprehensive introduction to Norouz, and makes it clear that it celebrated not only in Iran. Bertilvidet 10:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I am troubled by the upset over transliteration of a name. We pick one and stick to it. I see Diyako had suggested before for this article to be renamed. Maybe we should settle that first? Kaveh 10:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Diyako Talk + 10:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

But today i have collected much info on the Kurdish celebration of Newroz. in any case I support existance of such article. Diyako Talk + 10:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So do I, it is highly relevant and I consider its deletion as vandalism. But we might consider renaming the article in order to show respect for sensitivities of our Iranian co-editors. Bertilvidet 10:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are right.I respect them and their culture and history. Diyako Talk + 10:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Are we cool then? I actually did think of "Newroz and the Kurds", but I mean it seemed a bit shallow to focus on the name than the contents. But if we are to rename this entry, I am all for Newroz. Kaveh 10:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, it is not deleted. It was moved, because there was a precedent in that Newroz redirected to this page. I am still not sure which is the case here, it seems Diyako wants to use the common Kurdish transliteration of the name (when written in Latin alphabet) and Bertilvidet, more broadly, is interested in the Norouz in connection with the Kurdish people. Maybe we should work that out then? Kaveh 10:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear kaveh, First when I came I thought you have removed the article, when I saw the moved page, thought that it is not a bad Idea but really the title was not properDiyako Talk + 10:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. I should have left a message for you beforehand. If you'd like, move Norouz and the Kurds to Newroz and the Kurds. I still think it's better for Norouz/Newroz to have a single name on the articles here. But I guess words could mean more to some than others. Kaveh 10:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm waiting to see what is dear Bertilvidets opinion for the Kurdish article. But for this article, do you think that some Iranian users agree with Newroz?Diyako Talk + 11:05, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Well it's the least one can hope for. I mean the whole thing is such a mess: Norooz, Noruz, Norouz, Newroz, Newruz, etc. I think it's better we all pick a term and promote it. Newruz/Newroz works best, in my opinion, when marketing the concept to English speakers. In anycase, I'm tired, having just arrived from a New Year party. Hope you can reach a sensible outcome yourselves. Wish you the best this Newroz and happy New Year! Kaveh 11:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

In encyclopedia britannica Noruz is used and in this academic source Norooz is used for the title. We need to select one. The same word should be used to make pages like "Norooz in Kurdistan", "Norooz in Afghanistan", "Norooz in Tajikistan" and so on. Then you can also explain in the bodies of the pages that how local people pronounce the word. --Sina Kardar19:01, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikstan all are Persian-speaking while Kurds are Kurdish-speaking, They have their own name for their festival. No need for Persian names.Diyako Talk + 19:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Greater Iran also includes: Afghanistan, Arran (Republic of Azerbaijan) and Central Asian Republics. [4] We need one name for this festival. The name should be taken from an acedmic source. --Sina Kardar19:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputeing the vandal merging

There is a Kurdish new year festival and it has and deserves it own article. You have not the write to censor it. Diyako Talk + 15:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Noruz is an Iranian New Year festival often associated with Zoroastrianism and Parsiism. There is nothing called Kurdish Newuz or Tajik Newruz or Afghan Newruz etc.

References: Noruz at Encyclopedia Britannica: [5]

Noruz as the festival associated with Iranian new year: [6]

NOROOZ, THE NEW YEAR OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLES by The Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies at University of London:[7]

Stop vandalism! --Sina Kardar18:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed an interesting point. It is a matter of fact that Kurds celebrate Newroz every year, and that this celebration is an important manifestation of Kurdish identity. Is it vandalism to describe this fact on Wikipedia? If yes, you should also attack the article Christmas_customs_in_the_Philippines. Bertilvidet 18:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Christmas is Christmas. and has only one page in wikipedia. The same should be the case for Norooz. About your claim on Kurdish identity, you have to provide an academic source. Norooz is by no means some thing by which you can differentiate Kurds from other people in the world. It is rather a unifying factor for Iranians (Persians, Kurdish, Lors, Tajiks, Mazanis, Gilakis etc) rather than a differentiating factor for Kurds. It is a manifestation of Iranian identity rather than Persian identity or Kurdish identity or Lur identity etc. --Sina Kardar18:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There are many pages about Christmas on Wiki, exactly because there are many different traditions. In the Newroz article this source is provided to substain the importance of Newroz for Kurds. The fact that millions of Kurds celebrate Newroz every year is in itself a proof that it is an important event for Kurds too. Bertilvidet 18:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest you to take your debate at Wikipedia:Deletion_policy. Then the rest of us can try to reach a compromise that satifies all parts in meantime. Bertilvidet 18:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with having pages on Norooz in different countries or cities. But it should be stated in all those pages that:Norooz is an Iranian festival. These kurdish wikipedians are trying to say that it is not Iranian. This is vandalism. Norouz is an Iranian festival and Kurds do belong to Iranian people. I am Persian and we have far more population than Kurds and Norooz is our most important festival (and the only festival that is still alive for us). I am still waiting to see one academic source for your claim. --Sina Kardar18:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit I'm disappointed Bertilvidet. We agreed on a title similar to the Philippines example. But I see the "Newruz" article was maintained. In addition, Diyako seems to be only interested in inserting the common Kurdish transliteration of the word more than having an article on Norouz/Newruz and its impact on the Kurdish people. If this is what you both seek there is no point in further discussions. Kaveh 18:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Kaveh, I am afraid we didnt reach an agreement yet. The article on Xmas in the Philippines cannot be used as a template for the Newroz celebration. I still argue that we should have an article on Kurdish Newroz celebrations, and it would be fine for me to rename it as such. The historical part could be in a comprehensive, general article about Norouz. Bertilvidet 19:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed what was agreed upon. So why is it still at Newroz? Incidentally, we have to use one title for the concept. It is not "Xmas in the Philippines" nor is it "Feliz Navidad in the Philippines". Kaveh 20:06, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

First your source does not claim Norouz is Iranian or at least merely Iranian, your third source is biased and is not a neutral one. I have discussed it before. for eample look at its biased slogan in the right corner above the page that says if there is no iran I'll die!! or that petition against oppressed azeri people In Iran. Secondly, My sources are not Kurdish also the are many Kurdish ones but I only have provided source from non-Kurdish sources or at least articles which are written by non-Kurdish people. Thrd, As I said there is a Kurdish New year [8] and Newroz is its celebration and deseves it own article. Diyako Talk + 18:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Norooz (Nowruz, Nevruz, Newruz, Navruz) in Persian means "New [-year]-day". It is the beginning of the year for the peoples of Iran (Greater Iran, including: Afghanistan, Arran (Republic of Azerbaijan) and Central Asian Republics).

Turkey too has decided to declare Norooz a holiday. It is also celebrated as the New Year by the people of the Iranian stock, particularly the Kurds a, in the neighboring countries of Georgia, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey.

-- Sina Kardar19:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Kurds are not of the Iranian stock. Diyako Talk + 19:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

you are not an expert. The above sentences was taken from the academic source that I provided above[9]. Provide an academic source which defined Newruz as a non-Iranian Kurdish festival. --Sina Kardar19:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

---

Summary: There exist no Non-Iranian Kurdish Norooz. --Sina Kardar20:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for that but there is a Kurdish Newroz. Diyako Talk + 20:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peace settlement

Can we reach common ground on these 6 guiding principles?

1. The current ”Newroz” article is renamed ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”.

2. All transliterations of نوروز (including Newroz) redirects to ”Norouz”

3. At the top of the ”Norouz” article there is a link to ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”.

4. The ”Norouz” article gives a comprehensive coverage of Norouz, both its history, contemporary celebrations and variations.

5. The ” Kurdish Newroz Celebrations” article focuses mainly on contemporary Newroz celebrations among Kurds, including its political implications.

6. If desired, everyone is free to set up additional articles covering local/regional variations of Norouz.

I kindly request you to only discuss these proposals in this section. How the history will be written etc. will be dealt with later. Bertilvidet 20:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Here are my suggestions:

• 1. In any sister pages, it must be mentioned that this is an Iranian festival.
• 2. The title for sister pages must have the original title (e.g. Norouz). In the body we can mention local pronounciation.
• 3. The titles of sister articles are better to be : "Norouz celebrations in Kurdistan" and so on.
• 4. There is no need to have a link at the top of Norouz article. We can have links to all sister pages at See also section.

--User:Sina Kardar20:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree this is s pushing pov. I think we should ask for mediationDiyako Talk + 20:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You were not able to answer any of my comments above. I have sources for what I say. I am a Persian. I could say Persian New year. I refused to do that, not because I did not have academic sources for that. Just to be more more positive to Kurds. I have also sources indicating that Newruz is not only Iranian but also non-Kurdish. I did not offer those evidences. Please assume good faith. --Sina Kardar20:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

How about New Year Celebrations Amongst the Kurds? In addition, a link at the top of Norouz is a non-starter. I think it is more appropriate to be introduced in the introduction or one of the sections. Kaveh 20:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I prefer ”Kurdish Newroz Celebrations”. Newroz is the word used by the Kurds, and as I see it is more a cultural celebration than actually a new year since Kurds in Turkey only use the gregorian calender. Bertilvidet 20:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, this is the English Wikipedia. You don't find an article here on Weihnachten in Germany. Nor will you find one on نوروز in Iran. See my suggestion on "Newroz" below. Kaveh 21:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Neither نوروز, norouz nor newroz is English. In English language Neworz is however used when talking about the Kurdish celebrations. Bertilvidet 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

And all sources provided by me are English not Kurdish. Diyako Talk + 21:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't matter. We are not trying to rename this article. We already have agreed on this name as a community. This discussion has a different scope. Kaveh 21:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Newruz and Norouz are the ways Kurds refer to Kurdish Norouz Celebrations. The latter title is what I suggest. or even better Norouz celebrations in Kurdistan. The word Norouz is also used in Kurdish mediaSee here. --User:Sina Kardar21:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

No not i'm not sure for the word 'Kurdistan' because many Kurds live outside Kurdistan. but the 'common' word for Kurdish celabration of spring is Newroz, nothing else otherwise. Diyako Talk + 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree. We have articles like "Culture of Iran" which is about "Iranian cuture". It does not mean that there is no Iranian out of Iran who share Iranian culture. But the big majority of Iranians are in Iran. So If you search for "Iranian culture" in wikipedia, you will be diverted to "Cuture of Iran". The same story is true here. I personally want to start a page on Norouz of Mazndarani people. I also need to have a consistent title. And I do believe a good title is Norouz celebrations in Mazandaran. --User:Sina Kardar21:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I really like Bertilvidet's suggestions. The only thing is that there need not be a link at the very top; there should be a section on regional variations, and one section of that will be the Kurdish variation, which will sumarize the celebrations, and have a main link to the full "Kurdish Newroz Celebrations" article. In regards to the suggestions by Sina Karder, I don't really think how the transilteration of نوروز appears in those pages or in the titles of those pages matters. -- Jeff3000 20:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine for me Bertilvidet 20:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The summary idea is excellent. Can we agree on the title then? Kaveh 20:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Newroz is the spring celebrtion of Kurds although due to persecution and political restriction which is special to Kurdish community it was unkmown untill recent years (and was or still is illegal) but it is part of Kurdish culture and indentity. I even cannot imagine to censor that word. [10]. Diyako Talk + 20:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

These political restrictions are only in Turkey and Syria, Not in Iran. Turkish people and Arabs do not like Iranians including Kurds. Newruz has nothing to do with Kurdish identity in Iran. --User:Sina Kardar20:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not "that word" anymore, you see. This is the English Wikipedia. If someone forced the Kurdish Wikipedia not to use Newroz, that would be censorship. I am sympathetic to your pains, but we can't make this a political statement. As of now we work with Norouz, any other alternative is fair game pending community consensus. Kaveh 20:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I accept an entry on "Newroz" explaining, say, the history of using Latin alphabet in a Kurdish context and the pronunciation along with political ramifications of the word in Turkey and elsewhere. But any article dealing with the celebration should be created using the accepted norm. If you would like to change that norm, be blunt and pursue that end. But please don't confuse the situation by using alternative transliterations. Kaveh 20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The word Norouz is acceptable bacause UNESCO is registering the festival under this name and spelling. --User:Sina Kardar20:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, I've provided several non-Kurdish neutral, reliable and verifiable sources that Newroz is the Kurdish celebration of spring. Iran has a Kurdish community which during history there have been too much animosity between them and the central government, The Iranians want to assimilate Kurds but Kurds resist, here I see the same anti-Kurdish political POV. Diyako Talk + 20:55, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not true. You need to provide source. Newruz has never been a political issue in Iran. If you do not agree, provide one source. --User:Sina Kardar20:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The Kurdish celebration is no different to the Iranian festival, its just a different name and some political seperatists.

First we have to put it in the Norouz article, and if it was necessary to have a seperate page for it (unlikely) then we can do that later. --Kash 21:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not even a different name, Norooz, Norouz, Nowrouz, Nowrooz, Newrooz, Newrouz, Nevrooz, Nevrouz, Nevruz, Newruz, ... It's all obviously the same word! Shervink 22:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

Respected user Diyako you claim that

"The Iranians want to assimilate Kurds but Kurds resist, here I see the same anti-Kurdish political POV " Iam sorry but how is the idea of the joint celebration of the same festival anti kurdish ...if you invite a relative over to celebrate new year is that then a political attack I tried to convince you to rephrase your article's title ...Bertilvidet mentions christmass in Poland which was close to my earlier suggestion to have an article on the "Newroz and Kurds" or as Jeff3000 suggested a section on regional variations in the main one. or what I thought would be an even more interesting article such as "Newroz, survival and politics" wherein you could with the help of other editors emphasise how the survival of this festival amid attacks of cultural wipeout by anti culture movements in history be it arab invasion or recent despotic regimes in mid east has become a symbol of an ancient unified heritage....since the preservation of it has been a triumph for all Iranian people be it the one's under soviets or baath party or the islamic republic of Imam e Zaman

but if unified joy in this ancient custom and joint celebration is anti Kurdish POV then Bertilvidet shouldnt conclude that Kurds have no friends but the mountains ... but that our friend Diyako considers our greetings as an insult--Loosekarma 23:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible version for Norouz

I've updated the Norouz article, but in my user space, so no one gets mad. It's currently at User:Jeff3000/Norouz. Please take a look and comment, and make changes on that page. If enough people think it's ok, we can move it back here. -- Jeff3000 05:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks great. Except instead of having the title at "Newroz and the Kurds" I think something like "Kurdish celebration of Newroz" is a better idea. --Khoikhoi 05:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Many Thanks Jeff3000 looks fine, how verifiable is the argument that it was Haft Sheen actually and that it was changed to Haft Seen post Islam?--Loosekarma 06:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Support 100%. Can be renamed per Khoikhoi. The argument of Loosekarma is detailed and should not determine the principal support for Jeff3000's proposal. Bertilvidet 10:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow a lot has happened over the night. Some changes have happened to this page, which kind of go towards my changes, (the section on the Kurdish section is larger here, than on my suggestion, and the Baha'i and Fasli haven't been moved, etc). And I think there is some movement to having an article of Kurdish celebration of Newroz or Norouz celebration of the Kurds, or something of that sort, instead of just Newroz (see the talk page of Newroz). I think all that remains is the spelling of Norouz/Newroz in that title, and the intro in that page.

Is it ok, if I move my page to this page, as it has a better logical structure? I would do it now, except Diyako (who is the main person against the current wording/etc) has not commented. If people think it's ok to move my suggestion here without his comment, please proceed. I won't be at the front of the computer for 5 or 6 hours, so someone please take my version and paste here once you think the time is right. -- Jeff3000 14:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you can go ahead. Diayok said so on my talk page: Yes sure I agree with proposal of Jef3000, It is good. I support also an article on the Kurdish version, whether the title of the article is 'Newroz', or 'Kurdish celebration of Newroz' or 'Kurds and Newroz'. It seems that we have an agreement :-D Bertilvidet 14:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. -- Jeff3000 23:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to see any sources to verify that all Kurds celebrate Newroz, as I had expressed before Iranian Kurds still celeberate Norouz, and same is possibly for the Iraqi Kurds. For now its OK, but I have labelled the pictures correctly now, as they were all taken in a PKK rally, which was pretty much obvious with the hundreds of PKK flags on each image --Kash 11:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Unless its a Kurdish custom to have PKK flags at Newroz celebration ;)? --Kash 11:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The omnipresent flags are not PKK flags, but the symbol of the Democratic Society Party. Turkish authorities would never tolerate a PKK rally. The celebration was organized by a range of Kurdish cultural groups, political parties, and I think also the main Turkish Human Right organisation. Bertilvidet 11:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, whatever political rally it is, I'd prefer it to be mentioned. --Kash 12:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You can call it mix of festival, celebration and political rally. Or a politisized celebration. The fire pic is from the same event. Democratic Society Party is one among other organising groups. I find thus the current despriction misleading, but refuse to embark in an edit war. Bertilvidet 12:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Calling it "Celebration of Newroz festival" is also misleading. Jumping over fire is part of the festival I am sure, but not having hundreds of a political party flags up and covering your faces also with their flag. --Kash 12:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The event does indeed have both political connotations and implications. These can be elaborated in the article. But still it is a celebration. A political rally would be used to show a common opinion and have some common political demands - this is the case for many Kurdish demonstrations, but not for the Newroz celebration. In fact there are no political messages on the banners (except the symbol of a party, and the text Biji Newroz) Bertilvidet 12:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it OK now, with a "controversies" section in the Kurdish celebration of Newroz article and a short summary here??? Bertilvidet 22:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is, can we get an admin to unprotect the Newroz page, and get it redirected? -- Jeff3000 00:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not happy that you removed the image's descriptions. I say we should remove the pictures (beside the man jumping over fire one), if you don't feel comfortable to label them correctly. --Kash 02:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norouz is an old Persian word

Norouz is NOT an Avestan word. I can post hundreds of links to prove this. I have NEVER seen the word being referred to as "Avestan", therefore I have made the appropriate changes. Dariush4444 02:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevance of Bahai fate

Why is it that there are numerous references to the bahai fate of islam in a Norouz article? I mean isn't all those billions of dollars you bahais have somehow, enuff for you? You still making commercial for your fate, and in no other article than the norouz, the several thousand year old celebration of new year! --Darkred 18:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Baha'is celebrate NawRuz, that is a fact. Please don't censor that fact. -- Jeff3000 02:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Couple other misconceptions that you have introduced: The Baha'i Faith is not Islam, it is a seperate distinct religious practice. This is not a commerical, Wikipedia reports on facts, and the Baha'is celebrate the holiday, and in fact have spread the Iranian celebration to many different parts all accross the world. There are differences of course, and those are noted in the article. -- Jeff3000 02:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I did not say baha'i is islam. The bahai is a movement or religion if you want to call it descended from Islam.You say wikipedia reports on facts!. Well my friends wikipedia is not a person and does not edit, its the user that put those things in this article that is making commercial for his fate.(meaning is spreading religious believes and that is against wikipedia regulations).

yes norouz has many names, the bahais version of it is called nawruz. i see no reason why we should put in their name of it in a matter of seperating them and their version of the norouz, which is clearly seen here: Norouz marks first day of spring and the beginning of the Iranian and the Bahá'í years. Is that how they have spread the norouz as you said? by sperating themselfs from the iranians and the meaning of norouz?

--Darkred 03:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You wrote "bahai fate of islam", and I note that the Baha'i Faith is not of Islam; it spread out of a Islamic religious milieu, just as Christianity spread out of a Judaic mileue. Please assume good faith; this is not a commercial, the Baha'is of all origins celebrate the religion; this is both verifiable and reliable, and will add a lot of references if you want, but I don't want to take over a page that currently does not have a references section at all. Please read the pages on Wikipedia:Verifiability, and since Naw Ruz as celebrated by Baha'is is verifiable, it deserves inclusion; this is Wikipedia policy, and it was what I was referring to when saying Wikipedia reports on facts. Secondly, the summary at the top is indeed just that; it mentions two things in regards to the Baha'is; the first is in regard to who celebrates the event, and that includes people from "Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Turkey, Zanzibar, Albania, and various countries of Central Asia,", and their diaspora, but it also is celebrated by Baha'is of all origins, American, Chinese, etc, and this is a significant difference, and should be noted. Secondly the summary mentions that it is the beginning of two calendars, the Baha'i calendar is quite distinct from the Iranian year (19 months of 19 days, + 4 intercalary days). I don't want to get into an argument in regard to Baha'is and Iranians, but when the Iranian government (not Iranian people) have persecuted Baha'is throughout their existence in Iran, how do you expect them to feel (I'm not saying it's right, but it becomes very easy to disassociate yourself from a group that you feel is being unfair towards you). -- Jeff3000 03:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok i compromised once and just deleted the and bahai yearsentence, but it seems you reverted again. I understand that it should be stated here but please edit it yourself so that and bahai year does not come directly after iranian year, menaing put that sentence in another place further down.

I really hope we have an agreement here. --Darkred 03:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

done, -- Jeff3000 03:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Well by further down i did not mean two words down, meant something like in another sentence not realted to the iranian noruz itself. So there is no confusion about what noruz really is.

I am not a religious man myself so i can assure you i have no bad intentions against bahais or you as a person, please assume good faith. --Darkred 04:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have slightly seperated the Iranian new year from the Baha'i new year, to make sure that no one would confuse the two, and yet you removed it again. It is verifiable information, and does not make sense moving it to another place in the intro. Please do not remove it. -- Jeff3000 04:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes slightly, i compromised last time and let it all be, but still you wont compromise. That sentence about bahai new year does not belong there, like i said before it is already stated in the bahai section of the same article. Furthermore if you mention the bahai new year at top then we might as well mention all the other iranian ethnic group's exclusive date of the new year. I don't see any reason why the bahai should have this privilege over other groups and be mentioned twise on the top of the page! --Darkred 05:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The summary part at the top is different. Norouz is the start of two calendars, and two calendars only, the Iranian calendar, and the Baha'i calendar, and the Baha'i calendar, is verifable information. Please do not censor information. If you remove the Baha'i information, it looks like Norouz is the start of only one calendar, and that is false. The statement only takes an additional 4 words, why do you want to remove it? -- Jeff3000 05:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Because of the reason i said above: why the bahai should have this privilege over other groups and be mentioned twise on the top of the page! --Darkred 05:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I will let this go for now, but later may call in RfC to settle this dispute. --Darkred 05:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

If you look at this objectively, the summary talks about two things, and they are quite different.

1. Who celebrates Norouz: Iranian people (and I use this broadly) celebrate it, and so do Baha'is.
2. The second is very different from the first, and it relates to how Norouz is part of calendars, and it's date, and this has nothing to do with who celebrates it, and it starts two calendars, Iranian and Baha'i.

These are two different things which are in the summary. Everything is verifiable, and by Wikipedia policy deserves mention. -- Jeff3000 05:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kurdish section

It was too large, it already has its own main article so it doesn't need to be too big on this page -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 10:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with kash--Darkred 10:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chahar shanbe soori

"Zardiye man az to, sorkhiye to az man" should be understood as an abbriviatio of "Zaridye man az AANE to, sorkhiye to az AANE man" literally: "May my yelleowness belong to you, May your redness belong to me". This in turn symbolized the wish to receive power and health (redness) from and purify the illnesses (yellowness) by fire (in accordance to the holy place fire has in zorostrian faith).130.225.0.210 18:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPA pronunciation

The first sentence of this article gives the IPA pronunciation as "Nowruz". This doesn't look like an IPA pronunciation, although admittedly I could be wrong. --Metropolitan90 05:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The first sentence uses the IPA2 rather than the IPA pronounciation, which are quite different, but easily confused. IPA2 is a way of transliterating Persian. Regards. -- Jeff3000 13:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I was thinking of Template:IPA2, which is different. --Metropolitan90 15:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baba Norouz / Hajji Firouz

Alright, there is a section on hajii firouz but nothing on baba norouz who is even a more persistant cultural icon. M87 23:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persian Vs Iranian

An anonymous user 82.95.13.109 (Talk) has been changing all instances of 'Iranian' to 'Persian'. I'm not an expert here, but my understanding is that the word 'Persian' has some political connotations, so I'm pretty sure that violates NPOV. I have reverted the changes, but whoever made them should feel free to discuss them on this talk page first before deciding whether to continue. Pipnosis 16:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

• Support I have reviewed every little detail of what is claimed as Kurdish version of Norouz, and I can't find anything that is different besides the language that is used in the celebration.

It is important for this merge to take place as there are many, atleast 20 different local tribes and ethnic groups who celebrate Norouz in and out of Iran. There is no reason to have dozens of different articles as it is already obvious in the article that there are various people who celebrate it, even if they are not Iranian and even that they belong to various different religious groups, etc.

At the moment article is confusing as it may look like it is celebrated differently in Iran than outside Iran and by different people.

Currently, the Kurdish article is nothing different besides lots of pictures from demonstrations of a political rally, and those problems are already explained in this article. --Rayis 00:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. The article on Kurdish celebration of Newroz would take a very large part of the article. Newroz is an important event for Kurds, and the way they celebrate it deserves a proper coverage - especially as Newroz celebrations among Kurds in Turkey are an important way of manifesting Kurdish cultural identity, causing wider consequences in Turkish - Kurdish relations. Bertilvidet 00:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bertilvidet, please read above first. I do not believe that it will. I have reviewed the legend, the history, the celebrtion and they are all similar to what ever other group of Iranian peoples celebrate it as. The importance of the Turkish situation is already very apparent in the current article. --Rayis 00:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Support - Check out Christmas, its all in one article. Also, another solution would be to have an article like Christmas worldwide. What do you guys think?Azerbaijani 01:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, this article is comparable to Christmas, dealing with the general traits of the celebration. But, we also have articles such as Philippine Christmas traditions and Polish Christmas traditions. In the same way I do believe that the specificities of the Kurdish celebration do deserve more attention than a short summary in the main article. Bertilvidet 09:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Norouz worldwide is a very interesting idea, because it could include all the local traditions, and be neutral on its emphasis on tribe variations or problems celebrating it --Rayis 08:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Support Nowruz is celebrated by Iranians, Azeris, Kurds, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Afghans and etc. There should be one article and then focus on celebration in each country. --alidoostzadeh 01:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose I tend to be on Bertilvidet's side. It's not that the Kurdish celebration is that different and deserves another article, but that we are applying summary style and moving some details from one page to another so that it does not take away and confuse the general reader. Notice that Newroz would redirect here. -- Jeff3000 03:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The argument for creating the article was that they are different festivals and that it is "important for Kurds". I believe the main significant difference is political problems in Turkey, as you can see in the Kurdish article it is filled with pictures of a KDP rally. These are already addressed in the current article. I think the general reader will be confused as they may think that the Kurdish version is a different festival. This isn't the case, and the article we are talking about isn't something like "Kurdish problems in celebrating Norouz", also as I said there are dozens of other ethnic groups who celebrate it. At the moment it looks like there are two official versions, one "In the modern Iran" and the Kurdish, but this is not the case as it is celebrated the same in other countries as well as by Kurds. The Kurdish issue is mainly with human rights and it is already apparent in the article --Rayis 08:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No, that was not the argument. Last year when all this was being flushed out and there was a discussion the reason was precisely the summary style and no other. Please read the archives of the discussion pages. -- Jeff3000 13:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but looking at the legend section of the Kurdish article, it is a fork of this article. The other thing is that this article is by far not excessively large for it to be cut in to pieces. And again, the Kurdish article is already presented pretty much the same in this article. The other sections have been unreferenced since the article was created last year. So again, I do not believe the the WP:SS needs to be applyed because it specificly says "When articles grow too long". I don't really see how this rationale can apply in this case. --Rayis 15:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose per Wikipedia:Summary style. - Francis Tyers · 14:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

How does this guideline apply here? Please see WP:SS#Rationale, most of the content of the Kurdish newroz page is the repeat of this article and the rest (such as the poetry) has been unreferenced since its creation --Rayis 15:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If the Kurdish page is not well done, i t must have degraded over the past year. The better solution would be to fix it (rather than merge) so it has a concise lead that points to this page, and then goes into specific details that would be too much in this page. If all the extra information from the Kurdish page is added here it will give undue weight to the Kurdish celebration. Regards, -- Jeff3000 16:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. "Well done"? So you are encouraging we copy the same details from this page to there? they are similar festivals! if you take out all the similar information, you are left only with the political things which are already included in this page, the merge would not really take any more space than it already does in this page. This means that there will not be much change here, and there won't be any undue weight for it --Rayis 19:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The Kurdish page, if you remove the mythology section which is suspect, and the lead, is 5K worth of text. The section in this article has 1.6K of text. Thus there is quite a bit of text there that if put here would be just too much detail. I'm suggesting changing that article to have an appropriate WP:LEAD that is used in a way that fits with summary style, maybe removing the Mythology section, and the rest can stay again subscribing to WP:SS where the details are in that article. Regards, -- Jeff3000 19:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you keep refusing to check and see that most of the material is repeated in this article, including bits in the lead and most if not all of the mythology section --Rayis 20:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In my text comparison above I did not include the mythology section or the lead, but here are the sections which are not included in this page, and if they were so would be a disservice to this page as it bloats it for no good reason:

• The two paragraphs on the banning of the celebration by Kurds in Syria
• The two paragrahss (sentences) of the Kurdish diaspora celebration
• The whole controversies section, which in my mind would not be useful in this article.
• The Kurdish literature part, which again would be way too much for this page.

Regards, -- Jeff3000 20:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, I believe that if we remove the non-sourced sections, I can summarise the whole thing in the section that is already in the article. There is a lot of other paragraphs of unreferenced random commentatory in the article which I do not believe are serving a real purpose right now besides giving an excuse for keeping the article --Rayis 21:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I want to understand the reasoning why you want that page to be removed. No one will reach that page first as Newroz redirects here, and it allows for details, which are current there, and may well be added in the future, to not indundate the casual reader who does not want the details in a summary article, just as per WP:SS. -- Jeff3000 21:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have explained many reasons for why above. Other than that, much of the article has been an attempt to confuse the reader that this is a "Kurdish festival" rather than a festival celebrated by Iranian peoples. It is very clear if you read the difference in here to understand why this article existed in the first place. It is not a coincidence that much of the article was done by user Diyako [11] who seems to have been banned for a year for many disruptions to Iran-related articles --Rayis 21:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith on the purpose of the article. When you see confuse I see summary style in precisely the way it is supposed to be used. Why should there be a limitation in showing how Kurds celebrate this common festival/day except that it would make this page unreadable; by moving the content to another page, it solves the problem. The consensus in the past was done with many editors, of which most do not have an axe to grind with either the Iranians or the Kurds. Right now there are three supports and three opposes, and so there is no consensus to change things. -- Jeff3000 22:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jeff, this is not about how many votes, it is about where the discussion goes. You are the only opposer who is willing to discuss. If the article did indeed show "how Kurds celebrate this common festival", it would have matched the title. But as I keep repeating myself, I have reviewed the material and they celebrate it exactly the same, and they include the same celebrations as part of the festival, including Chaharshanbe suri and Sizdah bedar. Any difference is minor and can be described in the Norouz article. I hope we can come to a compromise. Regards, --Rayis 22:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have also reviewed the material and in my mind there are portions of that article which are details that help to define what is different/important to the Kurdish celebration which should not be in this article. This is in line with WP:SS. We are both repeating ourselves. As of yet there is no consensus to merge that article into this one. Regards, -- 04:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Support they are not at all different --Pejman47 15:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Support It's the same celebration. --Mardavich 22:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong Support - - this is utterly bizarre! Noruz is essentially same tradition that has been observed for thousands of years by all Iranians (Kurds, Persians, Lurs, Baluchis, Azaris, etc.), as well as non-Iranians (Turks, Uzbeks, Turkmen, etc.), who were influenced by Iranian culture; the only difference is the pronunciation of the term which is depend on the region! If this is the case therefore, we have to create over twenty different articles here about Noruz, and call it: Khuzestani-Noruz, Luri-Nowruz, Kermani Nawruz, Yazi-Newroz, Sistani-Newruj, Esfahani-Noruz; Khorassani-Noruz and so and so forth! ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk) 08:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I find it really sad for Wikipedia if a majority decides to delete the article on Kurdish celebration of Newroz, and I am not sure about the motives for it. The celebration is of high importance for Kurds, and - as described in the article - it is a crucial point for Kurds to celebrate cultural identity. Search Google News and you will realize how important the event is. The notability cannot seriously be questioned. Is the aim of Wikipedia not to be a resource providing serious encyclopedical background? We have it; removing it will be a loss for the encyclopedia. Bertilvidet 21:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but this doesn't justify why we should have an article for every group who celebrates it. Are you saying it is more important to Kurds than for example Mazandaranis? This festival has a page, and we shouldn't create a page for every single people who celebrate it when they do it just the same. If you feel that you should create one for controversies surrounding them celebrating it in Turkey, perhaps you should create an article called Controversies regarding Kurds celebrating the Norouz festival in Turkey, but I am not sure how that would be "serious encyclopedical", because it is not. It may be a sad time for Kurdish human rights in Turkey but it doesn't mean we should change the rules because of it --Rayis 21:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Kurdish article is not breaking any rules. Please point me to one policy which states that page cannot exist. In fact there are guidelines that do allow for it's inclusion, WP:SS. Secondly there is nothing wrong with articles on other countries celebrating the festival in their unique way; please create them. -- Jeff3000 22:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Already discussed Jeff. It seems like we have consensus too --Rayis 22:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You quite well know that there is no consensus, and without consensus the status quo stays. I've asked an admin to give his opinions. -- Jeff3000 22:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

6/2 is not consensus? I appreciate an admin's point of view. --Rayis 22:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It's 6/3, and consensus is not based on vote counting in Wikipedia. Please see WP:CONSENSUS. -- Jeff3000 22:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Usually we don't count anonymous votes - which will make it 5/3.A t least we should be able agree on how to count. Bertilvidet 22:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The first vote was not anonymous, it came with my nomination --Rayis 22:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Yet another attack on the Kurdish content in Wikipedia. Oppose because Kurds celebrate Newroz differently and this is notable to be in the main article; Norouz but since it has a huge story behind it, it deserves a seperate article. In addition Kurdish Newroz is celebrated as an official London festival; http://www.london.gov.uk/londoner/06mar/p7b.jsp?nav=on. How can it not be notable or important enough to deserve an article. Ozgur Gerilla 22:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Kurds don't celebrate it differently, they just celebrate it! This is an encyclopedia and it should reflect the facts. Because of the recent interest in pro-Kurdish rights, there have been many attempts to highlight their culture and festivals which is all good. However in this case, this is a festival celebrated in many countries by many people. The article existed for a year and it still doesn't show that they celebrate it differently, infact they celebrate it exactly the same as others. --Rayis 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, Kurds celebrate it very different to Persians and obviously for some different reasons. Fire is what symbolizes the Kurdish festival whereas for Persians fire is nothing in Newroz. Kurds jump around this fire and play Halay whereas the Persians don't do this; where for the Kurds, That's the whole point! This is how and why Persians celebrate it; http://www.aiap.org/norooz/about_norooz.html Now, for somebody that knows this, it is very different. It seems to me there is a lot of people in Wiki who know nothing about some issues, it is these people who think they can make quality contribution, who use Internet sites (which lack the truth) to back their arguments and avoid the reality. Let's remember it's the reality that needs to be written in these articles, because we aren't a fiction encyclopedia. Ozgur Gerilla 23:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not correct, Kurds, Persians, Azeris and everyone else celebrate Norouz in the exact same fashion, fire is important for everyone in pre-Norouz festivities such as 4shaneh souri. --Mardavich 13:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I just realize that substantial amount of information about the Kurdish celebration of the article has been removed from its article, see [12]. I do certainly not hope this was an attempt to prove a point in order to get the article deleted. Bertilvidet

I didn't edit this because I do not know a great deal about the history part. But I know for sure that the contemporary celebrations are notable, and deserve and article. Bertilvidet 23:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

See the simply solution below. Nouroz is all one celebration, whether it be Kurds or anyone else. This is like saying that the Christmas in Germany is not the same celebration as the Christimas in the US. We can just have one article talking about Nouroz, and another article, Nouroz worldwide, talking about how it is celebrated everywhere else.Azerbaijani 00:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support, it is the same celebration. - Marmoulak 15:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support, Norouz is the same celebration everywhere. Shervink 16:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

The celebration that the Kurds currently celebrate as their new year, transliterated as Newroz, while originally having the same origin, as the Persian celebration has rightly or wrongly morphed into something that is quite different, both in it's believed source (again rightly or wrongly) and its significance to the Kurdish people. Currently the Kurds see the new year as a political movement seen to fight against the cultural repression that they believe is prevalent in Turkey [13]; it was for a long time illegal for the Kurds to celebrate the new year in Turkey [14]. Because of this the meaning of the holiday is quite different to the Kurds than other Iranian peoples; for example they look at the persecution that has happened at different new years [15]. Furthermore, the believed source of the holiday has changed and Kurds celebrate some other Kurdish legends [16][17]. While this new source, is for the most part probably fictitious and created ([18]) it is nevertheless a documentable belief that is significantly different that the original reason for Norouz, and thus needs to be in Wikipedia. We shouldn't take value judgements over why Kurds have created a new source for Norouz, but just document it, and also document that there are views that it is may not be true and that it was originally from the Persian. In doing so, placing all that information in this article would add too much detail for a general description of Norouz, and thus needs to instead placed in a daughter article as per summary style. Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, please don't generalise things like that. "Kurds" are an ethnic group consisting of millions of people; they haven't all "done" something together. If a few people put up a few websites or write a few articles, these do not necessarily reflect what all Kurds believe or do. We all agree about the Kurds problems celebrating Norouz, but these do not mean that for "Kurds" everywhere Norouz means anything else besides what it has meant for possibly thousands of years. This is a neutral Encyclopedia, and there is no reason for it to focus on something more than it is the case in reality --Rayis 17:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The Kurds, while being from the same ancestors as other Iranian people, are an ethnic group and are composed of millions of people, (see the reliable sources in the Kurdish people article). I have already provided academic sources that provide for the differences, and here is another. From Nevruz or Newroz? Deconstructing the 'Invention' of a Contested Tradition in Contemporary Turkey., Yanik, Lerna K Middle Eastern Studies, vol. 42, no. 2, pp. 285-302, March 2006. From that article:

• "In the late 1980s, with the rise of Kurdish nationalism and the terror that accompanied it, however, in Turkey, the concept of Nevruz as well as the celebration of it had come to be associated with Kurdish identity."
• "Thus it can be argued that Nevruz was ‘invented’ or adopted to cope with these two challenges, and mostly to balance and neutralize, at least culturally, rising Kurdish nationalism. Moreover, the adoption of Nevruz meant polishing the image of Turkey for which the Kurdish issue had been a constant source of tension and thus considered a big hurdle in the way of possible membership of the European Union."
• "Nevruz day and the rituals of the Nevruz tradition, such as people gathering and jumping over a bonfire, were used as a means to express Kurdish identity in Eastern Turkey where the population is overwhelmingly of Kurdish origin, and to some degree within some enclaves in Istanbul and Ankara where again the number of people of Kurdish origin is high. Secondly, the PKK (Partiya Karkaren Kurdistan) (Kurdistan Workers’ Party) specifically chose the Nevruz day to stage various terrorist attacks in order to obtain maximum publicity for its cause. This Kurdish association with Nevruz became increasingly pronounced after the 1950s when the Kurds in the Middle East and Europe slowly started to adopt Nevruz as a tradition. Coupled with the suppression they suffered, the ‘recovery’ of Nevruz became more intense and more ‘politicized’. In using Nevruz as their symbol of revival and resurrection the Kurds referred to an interesting legend in their mythology according to which, Nevruz marked the celebration of the uprising led by Kawa, a blacksmith, against Dehhak, a repressive ruler. Kawa, according to the legend, killed Dehhak and freed his people.15 Despite its importance for most of the Alevi-Bektashi groups in the region in general,16 Nevruz came to be associated by the end of the 1980s mainly with Kurdish identity as well as with the attempts to express and resurrect it."

Reliable sources that clearly show the political and cultural differences associated with the celebration of the Kurds. Furthermore, another interesting point in the article is why Turkey legalized Nevruz, it was due to cope with Kurdish Nationalism and to fend off the EU. These are all important aspects that need to be mentioned, and again would clutter up this page, and thus should be in a daughter article as per summary style. Regards, -- Jeff3000 17:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A few lines on this matter can be summarised easily, if not, as I have mentioned previously, we can dedicate an article to the problems Kurds face in celebrating it in Turkey. These problems are not faced by Kurds who live in Iran, Syria, and Iraq. I think by now you have shown your point of view and I would appreciate it if you let others comment. Regards, --Rayis 17:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"people gathering and jumping over a bonfire" is the same as other places. and "nevruz marked the celebration of the uprising led by Kawa, a blacksmith, against Dehhak, a repressive ruler. Kawa, according to the legend, killed Dehhak and freed his people." this is not the true legend regarding Newrouz but you can find it exactly the same in Shahnameh--Pejman47 18:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

an important fact that was neglected here, is that all the things that opponents of Merge says are all about kurds in TURKEY, only third of kurds live in turkey and in Iran not only they didn't and don't have any problem for celebrating it, but they are encouraged to do that! and in Iran 4 consequative days are holidays just for Newroz, if the community decides to not merging this article; it should at least must be renamed to "Celebration of Newroz in Kurds of Turkey and Syria"--Pejman47 18:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose merger - just because it may be a common holiday amongst Iranian subgroups, if that's even the right label to include Kurds, doesn't rob the distinctiveness of the Kurdish cultural expression and coverage by wikipedia seems fair to me.--Smkolins 18:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Smkolins, the "distinctiveness of Kurdish culture" in case of Norouz has not been shown! only political problems facing Kurds in Turkey celebrating Norouz. --Rayis 18:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It has been shown; they use a different legend as their source (again rightly or wrongly). Furthermore, here are more reliable sources that show that this is not only a thing for the Kurds in Turkey. First of all, from the article quoted above:

• "This Kurdish association with Nevruz became increasingly pronounced after the 1950s when the Kurds in the Middle East and Europe slowly started to adopt Nevruz as a tradition."

From the book "Echoes of Violence: Letters from a War Reporter" (2007) by Carolin Emcke which is based on reports in Iraq:

• "It is Newroz, the Kurdish New Year, and they are celebrating the story of the blacksmith Kawa, their first resistance fighter. Kawa freed his people 2,600 years ago from the despotic Kind Duhok. Now they are fighting for liberation again, and Nasraddin's unit longs for a speak from their taciturn commander"

From "The Australian People: An Encyclopedia of the Nation, its People and their Origins" (2001) by James Jupp:

• "The most common Kurdish celebration in Australia is Newroz. This occasion does not only mark the beginning of the Kurdish new year but is also considered the Kurdish National Day."

From "Mustafa Barzani and the Kurdish Liberation Movement" by Massoud Barzani and Ahmed Ferhadi which again is things happening in Iraq:

• "The Party organized the Newroz Celbrations of 1954 in Arbil, Suleimniyya, Halabja, Koy Sanjaq where mass gatherings were held with tend of thousand of workers, peasants, intelligensia and laborers in attendence. Patriotic slogans, speeches outlining Kurdish demands, and patriotic songs were presented."

From "Kurdish Diasporas: A comparative Study of Kurdish Refugee Communities" (1999) by Osten Wahlbeck in a chapter about Kurds in Finland

• "The extand of contacts between Kurds and the majority population also becamse apparent during the Newroz celebrations (the Kurdish New Year)."
• "The Newroz celebration was another way of demonstrating support for the Kurdish cause."
• "Newroz is an important celebration for all Kurds."

From "The Kurds" by Philip G. Kreyenbroek and Stefan Sperl in the chapter on "The Kurds in Syria and Lebanon":

• "Newroz (New Year's Day) is a popular Kurdish festival celebrated on 21 March each year by Kurds everywhere, dress in their national dress....In Afrin, Kurd Dagh, the celebration of Newroz cost the Kurds three dead and eighty arrests. Now the festival of Newroz is once again tolerated."

In "The Kurds: Culture and Language Rights" by Krim Yildiz (2004):

• "According to Human Rights Watch, Kurds in Syria have had the struggle to obtain permission to celebrate Newroz, and in the past htis celebration has been met with violent repression. A report written in 1994 by officials from two embasses based in Damascus concurred by stating that Newroz events are tolerated as long as they do not become political demonstrations protesting the treatment of the Kurds".

These sources show that the the political nature of Newroz for the Kurds and the mytical legend source for it is uniquely Kurdish, and is celebrated by Kurds throughout the world, including those is diaspora. Regards, -- Jeff3000 18:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jeff, we had already established that there are political associations regarding some Kurds. I will list the reasons I believe the articles should merge:

1- There are dozens of ethnicities who celebrate this festival, many with very few traditions that make their celebration any different to what is regarded as "Norouz" that Iran celebrates as it's new year's festival

2- There are no reliable, third party sources that show Kurds, especially as an ethnic group, celebrate it different to a degree that it is necessary for it to be a seperate article. Currently, the major part of the section for Kurdish celebration is dominated by the political problems of Kurds celebrating the matter in Turkey, and only one or two sentences about how the difference in traditions of the festival.

3- I believe, as others have voted also, we can have a nice balance of information regarding the traditions of Kurdish celebrations of this festival and a short paragraph summarising the problems in Turkey (which I believe have stopped by now since Turkey celebrates it as its own spring holiday) in this article

4- This paragaph can be a very nice addition to this article but so far the focus has not been to provide reliable sources, atleast in the articles, regarding how "Kurds" celebrate this matter. Mainly, 5 million Iranian Kurds take little part in the "random collection of links" mainly referring to newspapers and pictures of political rallys in Turkey are used as sources.

I think if any effort is being put by those who oppose this merge is being put in getting votes rather than actually checking the articles and providing sources, currently the article is a mess, and before I started removing nonsense from it, it was even worse. So I really would like to suggest more effort in to the article which as it stands, half of it is regarding the politics and the other half is mainly poorly referenced and it is covered from top to bottom with pictures of a Democratic Society Party rally. Maybe then there would be a real reason for the article not to be merged in a nice summary (currently its impossible with the amount of unreferenced or poorly referenced info and all the political rally pictures). Thanks, --Rayis 20:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Rayis but you are completely misinterpreting the discussion. The only sources given in this discussion are those that show that the Kurds celebrate it differently. None of the support statements have said anything other than "support-they are the same". The second range of sources show clearly that this is not solely a Turkish thing but a Kurdish movement, all throughout the middle east and in diasapora. Throughout the world the celebration has political and nationalistic feelings that do not exist in other celebrations. So let's go through your points one on one:

1. This argument doesn't hold water. That the other ethnicities or countries do not celebrate it differently, does not invalidate that the Kurds do. If other groups do celebrate it differently go ahead and create articles for the other celebrations as well. The Kurdish article is definitely abiding by Wikipedia policies of summary style.
2. "No reliable third party sources" - I have shown many above, in Turkey, in Syria, in disaspora, and that is only through a short search.
3. The Wikipedia guideline of summary style addresses this point exactly. There is a nice balance in this article, and that does not imply that more information cannot be provided in the daughter article.
4. See point above, I've provided journals and books. Please read reliable sources and you'll see, they are considered very reliable. -- Jeff3000 20:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeff as I said, if you want the article to improve, go ahead and do so. The sources you have provided in this discussion do not make the article any fitter to keep. Unless there is an improvement there is no doubt that it should be nominated for an AfD (only after the sourced info is summarised in this paragraph here). You have by no means shown why there is any needs to have a seperate article on this matter as your references only confirm what is already available in the article and the paragraph here! As you point out regarding the WP:SS and also "undue weight" most of the information in the Kurdish celebration of Norouz is regarding the political problems, and little has been focused on what it is regarding the celebration that is different to how others celebrate it! If it is just jumping over the fire, when fire symbolises more to Kurds than others, I don't see how that shouldn't just be summarised in the Norouz article. If it is just to make a point that the celebration is political, then it is definately worth it to understand that it misses the whole idea of it being a celebration as well as the fact that it is not a widely celebrated event by "Kurds" in the region (as a political festival!), so again: Most Kurds celebrate the Norouz festival, in a very similar manner to others, and recently it has been associated with politics, and there have been problems in Turkey for the Kurds there to celebrate it. I do not believe this matter really needs an article to itself, while it can be nicely summarised in the Norouz article. Unless you can really show that this can not be done, I don't believe there is a reason for the article not to be merged in to Norouz. --Rayis 20:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I will get to that article in a second. I have also brought this discussion up at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex -- Jeff3000 20:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Great, although I hope you did not miss the other parts of my discussion. In any case improvement may be useful for merge anyway. Thanks, --Rayis 20:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support That can be an international article with section on Kurds , Persians , Azeries, Tajiks , Afghanis , Tajiks and etc .Comparsion would be more possible. That's also possible to draw a map to show the Geographical places that celebrate Nouwroz ...

Alborz Fallah 9 March 2007

• Support similarities are much more than differences. It should be one article with different sections.Gol 07:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support They are the same celebration. The articles need to be mergedDariush4444 02:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support

'The very same was argued last year and the conclusion is with clear intention being ignored by non relevant facts about how an ancient Iranian festival has come to attain political significance for a section of Kurds who has decided to exploit their Iranian identity in countries which oppose it

But to some again association with the same Iranian identity would not serve the greater political agenda of fabricatiing an exclusive parallel history

hence the desire to paint it all new

what exactly does it prove to bring line from an source stating that for kurds in Australia and Finland Norouz is important? what ofcourse they are an Iranian people Norouz is also important for afghanis living in Australia and Finland

Ok Barzani and PKK decided to launch some major move on Norouz! so bloody what even Khamenei the leader of the IR of Iran has to appear on TV every bloody Norouz to greet the nation because its Iran after all and Norouz is the pillar of Iranian Identity

So some western commentator grasped some shiity grain of understanding about some political struggle when he saw them during their new year gathering ......soooooooooooooooo what ????

Its like a dude from asia who has never heard of Christmas or Easter travelling to Basque or Kosovo and commenting on how he understood of these people trough their celebration Christmas

Its the same and all the more beautiful that some Kurds in turkey should choose at least once a year to engage in their Iranian identity which hurts some wiki editors who dont even know or care to know if in Tajikestan and Azarbaijan it too is a festival and that there too they incorporate fire

but distinct dogmatic editing is not even concerned???--129.241.91.138 13:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to make judgements over certain facts. It's purpose is to document them. The facts are that, rightly or wrongly, for the Kurds the meaning of Norouz has changed from what it was originally for most Iranian peoples. This needs to be documented. It has nothing to do with serving political purposes - it has happened, it needs to be documented. By not documenting then Wikipedia would serve the opposite political purpose of censoring what is happening in Kurdish reasons. That Kurds all over the world, including Australia, Finland, the UK all celebrate the day as a national day further shows that in fact has transformed and this needs to be documented.

You mention "sooooo what?" Again the point of Wikipedia is not to ask this question, but document what has happened. Political ralleys have happened, Norouz has become a symbol of Kurdish represssion. It has happened, it has been published in multiple reliable sources and thus per Wikipedia's attribution policy definitely has a place in Wikipedia as it is both verifiable and notable. Regards, -- Jeff3000 13:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect when u say political rallies have happened? If a political rally happens in a country which disallows Christmas or Diwali due to some goverment policy that rally does not become part of the definition of that festival it sure may deserve mention but it is a sporadic fact in 2500 years of celebration and evolution of the concept of that festival

if this Norouz (and its quite possible) somebody like ahmadinejad decides to launch another "statement" on Norouz to rally the citizens of IR around some motive ..then yes "sooooo what?" is the appropriate remark and it definitely does not need to the grace the article, someone may fancy a page on it since as you may put it It has happened

Iam sorry people in Kermanshah are Kurds they dont share the same anxiety, people in Ilam are kurds they also dont but hell maybe the MKO and the iranian opposition in general too uses Norouz to meet and propbably rally against the Islamic republic and they are are not even Kurds it is 20-21 st century political usage of a tradition its not a defining factor

Iranians or Iranian people all over the world be it Lor, Afghan or Mazi etc, celebrate it as their National day This transformation you refer to is a POV and it excludes Iranian Kurds to start with

Regards --129.241.91.138 14:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Please read the Newroz celebration by Kurds and read the citations. First of all the text states by the majority of the Kurds in mostly Turkey and Syria and Iraq; that the Iranian Kurds don't celebrate it the same way as the other Kurds (which no one has found a reliable source to state for or otherwise) does not invalidate it for the other Kurds (which are a majority of Kurds) which do have reliable sources. Please go read the citations; the political-ness of the celebration for the Kurds in Syria, Iraq and Turkey have been documented in the reliable sources in the article from multiple books, and that is how they are presented. Secondly, this is not a sporadic event, and your example is not at all germane. The sources clearly show that the celebration has been used differently for decades and is notable. Take for example, your statement on Ahmadinejad giving a certain speech; how does one decide if that statement should be in Wikipedia; well the guideline of notability comes into play which states "A topic is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, independent of the subject and independent of each other. The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered." So if the statement of Ahmadinejad was published by multiple reliable sources then it could be in Wikipedia, just as in other rallys have articles in Wikipedia such as the 2006 Tonga riots. In this case, not only is the event not a singular event, but the notability of the event for the Kurds has amply been shown by the numerous books and articles that have been published on it. Regards, -- Jeff3000 15:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

after reading this [19] (it is in persian)I decided that it maybe better to have both articles remain, and renamed the kurdish one to "Celebration of Newroz by Kurds in Turkey". It should not generalize Kurds of Turkey to Iraq or Iran, because in Iran never Norouz was prohibited and doesn't have the "hidden meaning" that kurds of turkey may have in celebrating it. --Pejman47 23:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Simple solution

Why dont we just create another article like Christmas worldwide, instead of having one article for each group that celebrates this holiday. Its the same holiday, we should not have so many seperate articles, whats to stop someone from making German Christmans, French Christmas, Chinese Christmas, etc...?Azerbaijani 21:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a possible solution, but how many of these page exist so far to have the need to create a Norouz worldwide. -- Jeff3000 21:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Norouz is celebrated by and in many countries, there is no reason why we shouldn't do this. --Rayis 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be fine with a Newroz worldwide article. But this should not lead to an attack on pages dealing with specific variations and factors of importance of the celebration at some locations. We also have Philippine Christmas traditions and Polish Christmas traditions. (btw, most of it have been discussed before, 1 year ago a merge was also proposed, may I kindly suggest you all to read the talk page here) Bertilvidet 08:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This idea is just preposterous. We have articles like Philippine Christmas traditions and Polish Christmas traditions thus why not have Kurdish Newroz and Persian Newroz and a main Newroz article. Let's remember Christmas is an equivalent celebration to Newroz. Ozgur Gerilla 12:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, those are countries not an ethnic group. Secondly, they are based on different traditions celebrating a festival, however Kurds celebrate it the same. The article existed for a year and no reference has yet been provided to show that the traditions are different to how anyone else celebrates it; it was full of nonsense like "it is a kurdish word and not related to Iran or Turkey", which were not only politically motivated statements but also completley untrue and unreferenced rhetorics. Supporting Kurdish human rights is one thing, making up random facts is another --Rayis 15:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So what are you suggesting, that a countries tradition and celebration is unique enough to be on Wikipedia but not ethnic groups differences. This is not really logical. It's different; from the way Kurds centrelise the fire and symbolize it from the story. Keep the article and my team (WikiProject Kurdistan) will provide the necessary references. Ozgur Gerilla 16:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Its worth noting that this is not an AfD, but merely a proposal to merge. - Francis Tyers · 16:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Fire is an important part of the festival and Norouz is a fundamental Zoroastrian festival, so of course fire is very symbolic in it. The legend behind what Norouz celebrate is exactly the same as Iranians. Any other difference is minor, please provide your references (reliable, neutral, third party sources) now, it has already been a year. --Rayis 13:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think creating Norouz worldwide would be a good compromise, with sections on regional celebrations by Kurds, Mazandranis, Azeris, etc. --Mardavich 13:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Why the "worldwide"? The current article title "Norouz" is perfect for that purpose, with sections added for specifics in each area. I mean, "Norouz" is a worldwide thing anyway, so there's no point in adding the word! Shervink 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)shervink

Not to replace this article, but to complete it with details about regional traditions of Noroz. --Mardavich 20:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haft Sin

Haft sin is not just any 7 things starting with a sin. It is 7 specific items, all starting with a sin, and each one has a special meaning! Can someone please correct this (major) issue please. Ahmad 19:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick fix of this section and the original article. It still needs cleaning up though. Ahmad 20:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Last thursday night" ceremony ...

Visiting cemeteries , to clean up the tombs and to remember the passed ancestors , (Shab - Jomyeh Akhar sal : Last Thursday night of the year )is also a tradition of Norooz in Iran : It seems to have long history and it maybe related to the ancestor's worship of ancient times ( before Zoroastrianism) --Alborz Fallah March 9

[edit] Merge

The article, "Kurdish celebration of Newroz" should be merged into this section. It is the same holiday. Norouz is the ancient Persian new year. The celebration comes from the Zoroastrian religion. Kurds are one of the ancient Iranian tribes and event today their closest relatives are Persian people. Kurds share their culture and heritage with Persians and other Iranian people. There should not be a duplicate article....it is just confusing for people who are not familiar with the subject.Dariush4444 01:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

We've had this discussion above. While they have originated from the same source, the Kurds now see Newroz as a national movement, which is highly politicized. They have created a new legend as the source of it (which is ficticious but is something they believe in). This is something unique to the Kurds, both in Turkey and abroad. I'm in the process of completely sourcing the other article, and the verifiable information shall not be deleted. -- Jeff3000 04:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, as much as I appreciate your efforts, that is your POV. As we discussed above, not all Kurds have the same point of view. When you say "Kurds now see" or "They have created", you are talking about a group of them, minority or majority obviously no one knows. However none of your sources refer to Iranian Kurds and how they see the situation, and also many of your other sources are not based on the matter alone but seem like random parts of books (a medicine for immigrants book?!) that refer to the celebration and should not be used to back up such generalised statements regarding all Kurds --Rayis 14:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

First you complain that there are no sources, and not that I've fully referenced the article, you complain that the sources are not good enough. The sources clearly pass by the criteria of reliable sources. Instead of complaining, I encourage you to also find sources, rather than wanting to delete attributed statements. -- Jeff3000 15:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Jeff I said I appreciate your efforts and then, I mentioned that some of your sources are weak and they shouldn't be used to support such generalised statements like Kurds have done this and Kurds believe that, which are not complaints, I am just pointing them out --Rayis 16:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

The source provided for the etymology section was from an article in Online Encyclopaedia. At the end of the article, it states that This article is from Wikipedia. so I removed it. I am sure better sources can be found.Heja Helweda 19:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] THe Tajiks in China?

I get the impression that Noruz is a Persian-Turkish holiday, so do the Tajiks (who are Persian) who live in China celebrate this as well? Le Anh-Huy 23:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haji Firuz!

Why is there no section about Haji Firuz? I cant find any good information about this guy anywhere. But from what I've been told, he's a slave who has been freed by the Persians and is celebrating Norouz through silly songs and laughter 216.175.76.251 06:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Sam

[edit] LOKK THAT VIDEO ABOUT NEWROZ IN TURKEY

[edit] Hier bitte etwas posten, das beweist, dass das Kurdische Volk unterdrückt wird!

Ich hab hier mal ein Video, das beweist, das die Kurden nicht mal Recht auf Newroz haben!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6uu5OPMPaI

Bitte drauf klicken und weinen!!!!!  :(

push the button!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!