Talk:North Carolina State University

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	To-do list for North Carolina State University:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Here are some tasks you can do: Add to lead. The lead needs 1 or 2 more paragraphs to summarize the article. The Student section needs references. References need to be checked for constancy and accuracy. Athletic Section needs more content. History section needs to better summarize the sub-article. The NCSU template at the bottom need to be cut back so it has less red links. Standard appendices don't follow Wikipedia:Guide to layout. Fair-use images like NCSU Technician header.PNG and Newblocks.gif need a detailed fair use rationale. alumni section doesn't follow format set by previous featured articles, see Duke University and look at its format and University of Michigan

Contents 1 Flagship Status 2 Random 3 Page Location Change 4 Kamau Kambon 5 Make a people page? 6 John Tesh 7 Rankings 8 Good Article 9 Athletics: Cheerleading and the Dance Team 10 Carnesale portrait? 11 GPA 12 External Links 13 Suburban? 14 Athletics section 15 North Carolina State University at Raleigh

[edit] Flagship Status

This has been a fight for a long time. Is NCSU a flagship campus of the UNC System. Every time the words flagship appeared on the page, somebody deleted it away (usually from a UNC IP Address). I wrote to the UNC System office about the detail and this is what they had to say:

The UNC Board of Governors has not assigned official "flagship" status to any of our 16 university campuses. UNC-Chapel Hill is certainly the oldest campus, and there is no doubt that the entire University's has benefitted from Chapel Hill's national reputation for academic quality. NC State and UNC-Chapel Hill are acknowledged to be our two major research campuses, but again, neither has been granted any special flagship designation. Joni Worthington

--Thunder 23:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Random

The "strutting wolf" has changed. (see: http://www.ncs.ncsu.edu/trademark/data/trademarks.html) I think the picture in the article should be updated. The same goes for the Block S. --Mtrash 02:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody know if NC State has an official motto? I have looked all over and can’t find one. “Achieve!” is the title of NC State’s capitol campaign, not its motto. --Thunder 14:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Referring to the sidewalk mosaics, the page stated "unfortunately, as of May 2004, the one intended to be "E=mc^2" is still out of order".

Before the construction of this particular sidewalk, a tree stood where the equation is now. On the tree was inscribed the equation, and it was transcribed to the brick in remembrance of the tree. The equation in the brick is therefore not an error, but a historical marker; it is written as intended.

The equation itself is not what was referred to as being out of order. The white bricks were rearranged so they no longer spelled out the equation. I do not remember off-hand if it has ever been corrected. Walking past it daily made it a blur in my memory. I'll try to remember to check the next time I'm on campus. Bornyesterday July 5, 2005 16:29 (UTC)

[edit] Page Location Change

So, out of curiosity, is there any good reason why the article was changed from "North Carolina State University" to "North Carolina State University at Raleigh"? The official name of the school is the former as there is no other North Carolina State University with which it could be confused (unlike the Universities of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Wilmington, Asheville, Pembroke, etc). I don't think that the new name for the page is appropriate, and unless I am given a good reason not to, I intend on returning the article title to its original form. Bornyesterday 22:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I moved it and I neglected to justify it, sorry. The official legal name of the university is “North Carolina State University at Raleigh”. This is how it is referred to in the Statues of North Carolina. [1] I agree that there are no other North Carolina State University so the “at Raleigh” is redundant, but you will have to take that up with the general assembly.--Thunder 22:38, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

That may be the official name, but it's conventional to put articles at the commonly used and recognized name, rather than the most "officially" correct name. James Earl Carter, Jr., therefore, redirects to Jimmy Carter, which is where the article lives. It is, however, appropriate to put the full "official" name in bold in the first paragraph. Consequently, I'm moving the article back to North Carolina State University -- Seth Ilys 21:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kamau Kambon

Kamau Kambon continually gets deleted and added to people list for NCSU. I am wondering if his association with the university is truly notable. His notability seems to come from his recent association with NCSU and several controversial remarks. I think we should talk about it here, because a University page is not worth an edit war.--Thunder 17:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say not. He will end up being a footnote to history and his comments have been blown way out of proportion. He is a minority of a radical minority and beyond this one 15 minute clip, we'll never hear from him again. He has contributed nothing notably good or bad to society as a whole. Bornyesterday 21:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Do y'all think his article should be put up for deletion? Based on a Google search[2], he does seem to have generated some notable press. —Preost ^talk contribs 21:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, his listing under the NCSU people heading has been deleted (by an anonymous user). I am not sure if the article dedicated to him should be deleted, but his presents at NCSU seem minor. Should he remain on the NCUS people list?--Thunder 21:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

After investigating him further, I think he should go unlinked on this article, and I even suspect that his dedicated article should be scrapped, as well. The press he's generated seems mainly to cover the fact that he was virtually unknown before his remarks, which were immediately rejected by pretty much every one. This link offers some interesting thoughts on his non-notability. —Preost ^talk contribs 21:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Make a people page?

Should we split the people list to another page? This list could also be divided into type (like sports, entertainment, publishing etc).--Thunder 19:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a good idea. However, there currently are not enough people under the alumni section to sustain or justify a new page. tim 17:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is not enough volume, and until the list gets too cumbersome and long to play nice in the article, it should stay here. Do any other universities have their alumni/faculty/etc. list broken out to another article? --C.Fred 16:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, some universities do have a separate peoples page (see List_of_Harvard_University_people and List_of_Ohio_State_University_people). Some fraternities and sororities have people pages too. I do not like the idea of a separate people page for multiple reasons. First, they turn into inclusion fest. Editors add people to the list just to expand it. Second, they are of very little value. Most people pages could be converted into a category.

I retract my idea and think the people of NC should remain in the same article. The list should be maintained to only include those who are truly notable. --Thunder 16:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Tesh

I have done some research, but I can't find any good sources on if John Tesh graduated or was kicked out for cheating. Can somebody site sources? The only places I see it stated that he was kicked out for cheating are mirrors of Wikipedia. --Thunder 15:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

All I know is that he definitely did not graduate. I don't know for what reason he left the university though. Bornyesterday 04:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a pity that Registration & Records can't straighten this out for us. His Yahoo Music bio claims that he graduated with a degree in music and communications. C.Fred 05:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

If I were a betting man (and I am), I would bet that NC State didn't have a music degree in 1975. It barely has one now. I wonder if we e-mailed Tesh if he would respond. I think it is funny that on some library page he is listed on noted alumni. I guess you don't have to have a degree to be an alumn.--Thunder 14:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Technically, NCSU doesn't have a music degree. It offers a music minor, and that's it. And I'm going to bet that in 1975 it didn't even have thath. Bornyesterday 21:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

If we can't find a good source saying he was kicked out for cheating, the comment will have to go. Perhaps we can just say, did not graduate. --Thunder 21:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The whole cheating thing is false. John Tesh got a degree in communications from NCSU. He wasn't expelled for cheating. He's listed on multiple NCSU pages as an alumnus (which requires a degree), including http://gopack.collegesports.com/school-bio/ncstatecampus.html. His bio in a few places (including http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/tesh2) says he got a degree in communications. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.65.216.23 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Rankings

I changed the ranking of NC State from 78th of 120 national universities to 78th of 248 national universities because there are four tiers of national universities totaling 248 according to US News & World Report. I believe this change more accurately reflects NC State's true ranking.

I think we should delete the Princeton Review rankings. They're not relevant, and they make us look bad. You have to consider that -- although we probably didn't when considering schools -- a lot of high school seniors do come here for information. And PR's ranking have about as much credibility as the rankings I made up yesterday: the Ceeded Rankings, where NCSU is first in all categories. tim 14:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

How are they not relevant? (Relevant to what?) And who is "us"? Wikipedia articles are encyclopedia entries, not advertisements for universities. Whether "we" like it or not, the Princeton rankings are a high profile set of evaluations and therefore relevant to any entry on a university.

While I am myself an alumnus of NCSU (graduated in '01 with a B.A. in English and minors in Religion, Classical Studies, and Ancient Greek) and former 10-year employee of the university, I think it's dishonest to want to exclude relevant information on the grounds that it makes "us" look bad to prospective students. That doesn't square with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. —Preost ^{talk contribs} 14:49, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article

It looks like earlier today, User:Thunder8 self-nominated the article for WP:GA status. After reading the article, I entirely agree that it meets (and exceeds, in many cases) each requirement of a Wikipedia "good article." I hope everyone concurs. Can I say congratulations?  :) Justen Deal 06:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. User:Thunder8 has done a lot of work on getting this article looking great. Thanks to him and everyone else who has contributed! Bornyesterday 17:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Athletics: Cheerleading and the Dance Team

Neither cheerleading nor the dance team are full varsity sports. (The only full varsity cheer team is at Maryland, per this Baltimore Sun article.) Should we delist them both, or at least keep cheerleading (since they have national titles) and note that they're not varsity? —C.Fred (talk) 00:29, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Competitive cheerleading is a sport and there are resulting sports organizations governing their competetions. Just because it isn't recognized as a sport by the NCAA doesn't take away anything from the skills required to perform or the success that the NCSU teams have had. Bornyesterday 02:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Correct, but it's not a varsity sport. Hence, I think it should be moved out of the varisty section and down with club sports. —C.Fred (talk) 02:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Carnesale portrait?

In an edit today Thunder8 replaced the portrait of Governor Hunt—a well-known figure in NC after his graduation, with A. Carnesale, now the Chancellor of UCLA. Who is the better portrait to keep in the article, or keep both? Given Hunt was a 4-term governor, I lean toward him, but that may be NC-centric bias. —C.Fred (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to get a picture that didn’t include an American flag in the background. I took Hunt out because he is a regional figure. --Thunder 23:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I put Hunt back in before I noticed the discussion here. While I understand that the repeated presence of the American flag is probably not the best thing to present in the idea of global equality or whatever, a state governor is a much more significant graduate than a university chancellor, regardless of the state. Bornyesterday 02:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

At first I agreed that Hunt is more notable, and that's why I restored his photo on May 22. However, after reading the Carnesale article, I saw that he's more than just the UCLA chancellor. He was a US diplomat in the 1970s and the Harvard provost in the 1990s. Hunt is clearly more notable regionally, but Carnesale is probably more notable nationally and internationally. I think including either photo would be appropriate. Perhaps another solution is to devote a separate page to notable alums, giving us room for more photos. The current page is getting a "this page may be too long" warning anyway, so perhaps now is the time to split the pages. Rjmorris 02:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GPA

Does anyone know the average high school GTA for admission into NCSU? I did not find it. Zachorious 02:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Is that even a meaningful metric? I know there are high school students taking math classes at NCSU who are probably getting 5 points for an A toward their GPA. —C.Fred (talk) 03:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops! I meant GPA. Zachorious 04:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are a lot of students from New Jersey. They can probably break into a car, even if they haven't been convicted of GTA. :) Seriously, because GPA's vary so much from school to school, I'm not sure they're a valid admission statistic. —C.Fred (talk) 05:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

If the school uses them to determine acceptance, and they do, how is it not a valid statistic? - Bornyesterday 15:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Right. But the school probably has different thresholds for different scales. That's my point: is there a homogenized average that's published, or would we have to somehow aggregate the data or list multiple averages (e.g. 3.4 on a 4.0 scale, 4.1 on a 5.0 scale, 4.3 on a 6.0 scale). —C.Fred (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

In California we have a GPA system out of 4.0, but you can get above a 4.0 if you get As in Honor/AP classes. What was your GPA in high school for those in NCSU? Zachorious 20:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I'm removing the link to TheWolfWeb, at least from the Official Links section. That site has no affiliation with the university, but its placement there seems to imply that it does. Ncsupimaster 01:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suburban?

The infobox classifies NC State's location as "suburban." While that may have been true several decades ago, the location is, as far as I can tell, definitely "urban." -- T.o.n.y 18:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, North Campus is most definately urban. It is just few miles from Raleigh's tallest towers and downtown district. Yet, the southern and western parts of campus and Centennial Campus could be considered suburban. Just look at all the residences and such nearby. Therefore, I think we should use the same designation UNC Charlotte uses: "Urban/suburban".

The campus is definetly not suburban. Being surrounded by residental neighborhoods does not equate with 'suburban'. Orlière 19:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Athletics section

I see that expanding the Athletics section is on the to-do list. However, how much information do we want to duplicate here? There's already a separate article on athletics. —C.Fred (talk) 16:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I made the todo list out of the suggestions after the nomination for featured article. I think people like to see a short summary of the larger athletics article. What is the Wiki policy on this?--Thunder 00:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North Carolina State University at Raleigh

(Memo to self: Read examples before trying to use them. :) )

Given that I have two diplomas on the wall behind me, and the phrase "at Raleigh" does not appear on either of them, it stands to reason that the name should not be used in the infobox and throughout the article. At most, it should get a sentence in the intro that its statutory name includes the phrase—so long as it's duly cited. Reasonable? —C.Fred (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, does it really need to be cited though? You are a graduate of the school and admit it. A commonly known fact such as that doesn't need a citation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ebtunc2006 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Commonly known facts don't need to be cited, which is precisely why this does need to be cited. I wouldn't know about it if I hadn't married a history major who gained the information for other purposes. That said, though, I've cited the GS in the history article where the renaming is told in detail. I've also added North Carolina State University into the also-known-as sentence, since it is the most commonly used first-reference name. —C.Fred (talk) 03:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Also see #Page Location Change for other reasons to drop the "at Raleigh." I have stepped in this before.--Thunder 05:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I had a feeling this wasn't the first go-round of this dance; I missed it in the talk earlier. Throwing this out as a possibility: strike "at Raleigh" from the intro, mention it as the statutory name in the history paragraph? We mention the old name there, so it makes sense that the formal name go there. I'd like to get a feel for what the group thinks here and then make the change; I worried that it was headed toward an edit war on the main page. —C.Fred (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cfred. It is only "... at Raleigh" by statue only. The official seal doesn't feature it, the website only mentions it in history... not even the CollegeBoard, which runs the SAT's, shows "at Raleigh" (http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=614&type=qfs&word=North%20Carolina%20State). It's not even colloquial. --TinMan 00:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)