Talk:On War
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[edit] Reference re-added
A reference was removed without explanation. It has been re-added, as it was used to add content to the article on August 23, 2005. Per Wikipedia policy, a reference must be provided when information is "gleaned from an external souce." As that is the case here, to remove the reference would put the article in copyright violation. Uriah923 17:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Value of ON content and quality of reference
The content added from the ON reference remains in this article, but the reference has been removed. This action is disputed and a conversation is ongoing here. Uriah923 06:25, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Questions regarding the debunking of von Clausewitz critics
Clausewitz's On War and common misinterpretations of the Clausewitz (... missing words here?) have been the basis for modern military doctrine from the Peace of Westphalia onward. (How does a book published in 1832 provide the basis for doctrine since 1648?) I agree that On War is a product of its time, but what is not appreciated in the rebuttal of its critics is that the eastern methods of warfare are quite different (from what?) and offer a different approach to warfare. One of the great differences is that eastern warfare is prosecuted at the physical, morale and economic levels. (Does anyone seriously believe that Western warfare lacks physical, moral/psychological, or economic elements?) Sun Tsu was able to impart this in far fewer pages than Clausewitz, even including the 36 Strategies and the Lost Art of War by Sun Bin.
What is clear is that Clausewitz emphasises the commanders' and rulers' parts in warfare, but eastern methods are intended to be applicable to all levels (eastern warfare believes that strategy is applicable at the level of personal combat as well as of armies). The reason for this is that the eastern emphasis is on the mind of the opponent. The real difference is that it is presumed in the West that one soldier is the same as any other soldier. (Which is why Clausewitz wasted so much time talking about the differences in the character of various commanders and armies?) In the east an emphasis is placed on individual skills and characteristics.
In modern times we face an opponent that uses Eastern methods. These can be effective against more Western-type state militaries (e.g., Hezbolla vs. Israel 2006). (Just as Western methods can be effective against Eastern forces--accepting those false categories for the sake of argument.)
The point of all this is that it seems that the criticism of Clausewitz is appropriate.
As for the note at the end of the article, I believe that B.H. Liddell Hart is correct in that if Sun Tsu's methods had been in use instead of Clausewitz's, Europe might have been spared much of the damage (of what?). If outstanding strategists had followed Sun Tsu in Europe, then they might have found victories without fighting. (Which is why the Chinese Civil War did so little damage?) India's Ghandi (Gandhi?) is a good example, Vietnam is also a good example of Western and Eastern methods in conflict. (Communism is a Western political philosophy.) Notice that in the South most damage was confined to strategic targets, while in the North carpet bombing attempted to destroy the civilian and military infrastructure. And by the way the West lost that conflict.
As for the roles of violent emotions, chance, and human reason in the art of war, well, the best warriors that I know are cold blooded, leave very little to chance (absurd), and attempt to cause insanity in the opposition thru the methods common to Sun Tsu, Musashi, Boyd, etc.
Maybe the page should not contain so much opinion on Clausewitz's critics and more on what is in On War--i.e., more explanation of Clausewitz's theories and the misinterpretations thereof.
[edit] Opinion vs Interpretation
I'm puzzled how the previous commentator proposes to focus on interpretations and misinterpretations and thereby dispense with all this "opinion." A balanced treatment (which is, I believe, what Wikipedia aims for) should contain both sides of the argument. When I edited this earlier, I removed none of the negative assessments (though I tried to clarify them). These criticisms are especially odd coming in the context of an essay that is about Sun Tzu and the delusions of "Eastern warfare" fans rather than about the subject at hand. In the meantime, I have partially corrected his spelling and grammar so that we can argue about content and not merely about poor writing.:-)
