Talk:Oregon National Primate Research Center

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[edit] Cleanup

I slapped a bunch of tags on this, the wikification part should be self-evident, cleanup includes bringing the entire thing into wikistyle per WP:MOS, all the claims about problems with the center need to be sourced, and though the negative information is written fairly neutrally, I think perhaps it is giving undue weight to the problems, and needs to be divided into pro and con sections for balance. I have a feeling this could become controversial so please remember to stay civil. Thanks! Katr67 21:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Katr67!

I'm very new to Wikipedia and I'm still kind of fumbling around. The formatting I have no clue how to do. Even replying to this talk page is kind of confusing me...

This is actually only the first half of the entry that I've completed, I'm going to add a bit more (including references) in the coming days. Sorry for the somewhat sloppy work I'm really surprised this was seen so quickly! I just posted it a few hours ago.

JBeckham

22:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi JBeckham. I just sent you a welcome message and you can read more about formatting on there. You replied fine, just a couple pointers--you can indent your posts for easier reading by typing a colon (:) in front of the line, and you can sign your posts using 4 tildes (~~~~), which adds a link to your userpage and automaticaly applies a timestamp. More on this is here: Help:Talk page. I have a ton of Oregon stuff on my watchlist and refresh it complusively so I saw you edits right away. :) Stuff usually doesn't go unnoticed around here for long. Thanks for the update on your work. This isn't too sloppy considering some of the other stuff I've seen. You're a good writer (I even checked to see if this was a copyright violation but it doesn't seem to be)--if you address some of the issues I mentioned above this is looking to be a very good article. Happy editing! Katr67 22:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Here's some help on citing sources: Wikipedia:Citing sources. Katr67 22:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kat! I just started a new job where I have loads of free time on the internet (and thus, Wikipedia) so I'm sure in no time I'll be a pro and be frustrated at newbies like myself :P I'll clean this up shortly. JBeckham 23:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

There were some serious problems here - the page on a 40 year old health research institution only included false claims of abuse from seven years ago and little to no reference to research. I can add more information in the near future - but the activist information was so full of incorrect info and so one-sided, we need to back up and do this in a way that truly provides users with helful information with strong references Onprc 07:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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From Katr67's talk page:

[edit] Oregon National Primate Research Center

Hi there, I'm writing from the Oregon National Primate Research Center. I check our WIKI page daily and was about to start adding info there when today I discovered that an animal rights activist in Wisconsin has posted some very one-sided and error filled info about our center with little to no actual info about our research. I made significant edits (there were so many problems with the false info posted I removed almost all of it because I didn't want to turn the entire page into a debate about what did and did not happen - and much of what was posted did not.)

I believe that the public has a right to many points of view but I also want to make sure that they don't just get false or bad info. For instance - if the page had alot of information about the center and included a reasonable amount of information about the activist claims in 2000, that makes sense to me. But it would also make sense to explain that the center had been cleared, and that the person who made the claims was known to make other false claims in the past. It shouold also explaini that the center has an excellent history of animal care.

I understand the in the past, Wikipedia has had problems with groups that want to use the online encyclopedia to further their causes - I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

Again - I would like to make the wiki page about our institution a useful resource and wouold be very pleased to get some input from you - thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Onprc (talk • contribs) 08:06, December 4, 2006 (UTC)

Using passive voice statements like "the center has an excellent history of animal care" reeks of POV problems. If you want to contribute something to the entry that says something along the lines of, "the Primate Center maintains they have an excellent history of animal care" and then provide a reference to ONPRC literature or website that states this, that's fine. But not everyone agrees with your statement that there's an excellent history of animal care and that is precisely the controversy surrounding the lab and the topic that is before us. To state things in such an offhand manner does little to maintain neutrality or fairness. And why am I using Wikipedia to advance a cause any less than you?

I don't disagree with Kat that my original entry had problems of undue weight - and I don't mind OHSU or ONPRC PR people adding bits they think may cast their primate center in a positive light. But deleting an entire entry and replacing it with your undue weight solves nothing. And using neutral language is important. Although most of what I wrote in the entry will be viewed by many people as shocking or alarming, I was careful in my choice of words to keep things to the point and framing it in neutral and factual terms. If you can prove a specific factual inaccuracy in my entry, I will have absolutely no problem with its removal. JBeckham 08:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This was the response I was posting on Onprc's page whent JBeckham's message came in:

(P.S. For the record, you should know that I dislike being called "Kat".)

I think it's a shame that you gutted the article (that kind of thing leads to revert wars), though I understand your concerns. I realized what was written may not reflect a balanced view, which is why I put a {{POV}} template on it. Like I said on the article's talk page, I think there is room for both pro and con on there. Unfortunately, if you are connected with the ONPRC, you are discouraged by Wikipedia policy from editing the article on it. Please read conflict of interest for more information. This probably doesn't seem fair, but hopefully we can work things out on the talk page. I suggest you read this about ownership of articles as well. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, however, so if the activist viewpoint cannot be backed up with sources, it is appropriate to remove the material. Your ideas about how the article should look sound good, if you have any of that information at hand that you can back up with reliable sources, which in this case should probably be from somewhere other than the center itself (for example your mention of the care the primates get could be backed up with something like: "The Society For Primate Welfare gave ONPRC an A rating for its animal care" followed by a link to the source). I don't really have a lot of experience with such controversial subject areas, the place just happens to be in Oregon so I keep an eye on the article. So other editors will probably get involved at some point. I hope everyone will remain civil. Thanks for asking instead of simply reverting without comment! Katr67 08:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you and I'm sorry for calling you Kat. Hopefully maybe you can mediate this tension and craziness :P I think everything you said was spot on and I don't disagree I need to add sources/references - which I will do tonight (while at work of course). I think having a pro/con type article is not a bad idea. I guess what I'm most upset about is 1. The removal of non-contentious information, such as the dollar figures and primate population statistics (which are directly from ONPRC's website and 2. the entire removal of the article instead of just adding things from another perspective. I say the more info the merrier - not the less. Also, the removal of the undercover investigation entirely is pretty terrible. It is not a stretch at all to say that the whistleblowing and the undercover investigation 6 years ago is what most people in Portland associate with the primate center - it captured more headlines than anything else affiliated with the lab and garnered substantial media attention and even structural change within OHSU/ONPRC. This would be no different than someone editing the Enron article to remove all mentions of fraudulent accounting practices and accounting scandals.JBeckham 09:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem. It's getting late and I need to sleep, so I won't explain how to do it, but you could copy the previous version of the article to userspace and work on it there. Then you can add the sources for some of the not-so-controversial stuff like population and slowly add bits back into the main article. If you have time on your hands I think if you search around for the term "userspace" you should be able to find some instructions. Katr67 09:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to you both - I am well aware of the revert wars and don't think we want to do that. However, the page does need balance and that was why there is a need to step back and make sure it did not echo one point of view. The animal numbers were outdated and incorrect - you are correct - should have updated on the spot. I am in Portland and will add references to the fact that primate center was cleared when that info is reintroduced, but again, there was so much false info in this section that was not supported, we needed to step back. I should note that the "undercover investigation" is far from the biggest story out of the center. The coverage of research at the center is common and in some cases, worldwide. We can definately add some of these references. JBeckham, please don't view this as any kind of "war" or "tension." We merely need to collectively create a posting that remains fair and balanced. 19:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So far so good--this is how Wikipedia should work! I would agree that so far the "tension and craziness" are minimal. :) Let's keep it that way! Katr67 21:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Since this article is one which is likely to provoke some controversy, I took the liberty of adding a citation for each statement of fact, using the standard citation templates.

I also edited the sentence regarding the animal census to the current year since it appears to be time sensitive and subject to change.-- J-M Jgilhousen 22:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)