Talk:Ostsiedlung

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Contents 1 Marches 2 Poland had an emperor ? 3 Peacefull ? 4 Possible Name change 5 Note moved from Marker of the Billungs section 6 Move to Ostsiedlung 6.1 Discussion 7 Ostsiedelung = Settelement of the East 8 Kraków 9 map 10 Huh? Can someone explain this sentence?

[edit] Marches

User:Imiraven How should I translate this sentence in Historische Entwicklung einiger Marken und Regionen: "In Norddeutschland gingen der Ostsiedlung Auseinandersetzungen Karls des Großen mit den nicht-christlichen Sachsen voraus, als Karl seine Reichsgrenzen sichern wollte". Unfortunately I haven't found any appropriate translation for "vorausgehen" in this case.

For Marken, it's short for Markgrafschaft (laut [:de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Brandenburg]), but I think originally comes from Latin marchia (see etymology of the words Ostmark forAustria). Mark Brandenburg has equivalents in a ton of languages but not in English, so I think your einenglisching of it is good.

As for this sentence: In Norddeutschland gingen der Ostsiedlung Auseinandersetzungen Karls des Großen mit den nicht-christlichen Sachsen voraus, als Karl seine Reichsgrenzen sichern wollte (siehe Sachsenkriege Karls des Großen).

My suggestion is: In northern Germany, the Ostsiedlung led to conflicts between Karl the Great and the non-Christian Saxons, ...

Adam Mathias 18:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

For Marken, see Marches. "Historical development of a few marches and regions" and "In northern Germany the Ostsiedlung led to conflicts between the pagan Saxons and Charlemagne as he secured the borders of his empire." Olessi 18:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that's better! Adam Mathias 19:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Imiraven 9:39 16/2/2006 (UTC): I've corrected many grammatical mistakes, used American spelling, and marked some doubtful words and expression, e.g "markers" is perhaps incorrect.

User:Imiraven 15:40 20 February 2006 (UTC): I'll have completed "East Colonisation" on 3 March 2006.

The article is loaded heavily with German POV, I will wait its final version, for now however obvious POVish sentences are spotted,for example: The East Colonisation was predominantly a peaceful process; the rulers of Hungary, Bohemia, Silesia, Pomerania, Mecklenburg, and Poland encouraged German settlement to promote the development of their lands. The sentence completely avoids the massacres of native populations that were made for German settlers to arrive, for example in Prussia, it avoids mentioning that while initially indeed German settlers were invited, soon ethnic conflicts followed as native people were forced into lower social status by their German guests. It avoids mentioning that arrival of Germanic knights in the area has led to conflict that endured for centuries in Poland, it doesn't mention the wars Brandeburgia led in order to capture and settle Polish territory etc. The conflict between Polish rulers and Germans within Poland isn't touched at all.No information is given on massive uprisings of original Prussians against Teutonic Knights, no information is given on enslavment of local population by Germanic knights in Baltic countries, and so on. And that problems are only those seen at one glance. --Molobo 23:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Well - please add the facts. But make it not anit-German POV - that would be if there is only one sentense about the peaceful processes and a large paragraph about massacres. By the way - not all the Slavs have been "Polish". The later "Polish rulers" have been expansionists themselves. To speak about "Slavic territory" in the context of 1945 makes also not so much sense. Lusatia for example has not always been inhabited by Slavs. There have been many tribes before, for example Germanic tribes and Illyrians. Around 700 Lusatia was nearly "uninhabited", but there was a smaler older population. Then there was a kind of West Colonisation of the Slavs - how "peaceful" this was is not known. But it is known that for the Milzener (today Sorbs in Lusatia) had not much to do with the Slavic tribes for example in Mecklenburg. The Milzener took never part in rebellions against the Germans (maybe thatswhy they could save there culture up to today) other tribes did. Around 1000 started the German East Colonisation to in comparison with their home areas also neary "uninhabited" areas. Many slavic rulers even invited them, because the rulers in this time mostly didn't care about Germans or Slaves, but wanted good farmers and craftsmen. In many nearly uninhabited areas for example the Upper Lusatian highlands the Slavs settled only 100 years before the first German settlers arived. For sure there have been also many conflicts, but the main process was assimilation and settlement in former forest and swamp at least in the most areas. 86.56.0.49 07:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poland had an emperor ?

It's the first time I hear Poland had an Emperor Casimir. --Molobo 23:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peacefull ?

From history of Brandenburg on Wiki: In the great uprising in 983 the Slavs wiped out German control from the territory of present day Brandenburg. The monasteries were buried, priests and Germans officials killed or expelled. The Slavic tribes living east of Elbe remained independent and pagan for the next 150 years. 12th Century In the beginning of the 12th century the Saxon German kings and emperors conquered the Slavic-inhabited lands of present-day Brandenburg. Many Slavic inhabitants survived the conquests and live there still today - Sorbs, Lusatians. The church brought bishoprics, which with their walled towns, afforded protection for the townspeople from attack. With the monks and bishops, the history of the town of Brandenburg, which in time became the state of Brandenburg, began. In 1134, in the wake of a German crusade against the Wends, the German magnate Albert the Bear was granted the Northern March by the Holy Roman Emperor Lothar II. For some time up until the 15th century, some part of the area that would become Brandenburg was inhabited by the Slavic Wends, who still make up a part of the area's modern population. --Molobo 23:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Name change

Kinda a small detail, but is east colonization really the right phrase in english? are you sure its not supposed to be "eastern colonization" or something?.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

English-speaking scholars usually use the term Ostsiedlung in italics. This article shouldn't have been moved - it's the most common forumlation in English. On the other hand, we need to get rid of these references to "Heinrich the II": in English he's referred to as Henry II or Henry the Second, Holy Roman Emperor. --Jpbrenna 15:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note moved from Marker of the Billungs section

(to edit: there is a lack of e.g details about the expansion to Pomerania, to Wartheland and to the Baltic States. The whole chapter has to be arranged again). (unknown; moved here by --Jpbrenna 15:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Kraków

"Ethnic Germans, along with Azkhenazi Jews, also formed a large part of the town population of Kraków".

The Jews lived rather in Kazimierz, a separate town, than in Kraków. Xx236 11:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] map

I have left my comments on the new map on the image's discussion page, I would like further input.

--Jadger 00:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh? Can someone explain this sentence?

The sentence below is the last one in the introduciton. What is this sentence intended to say?

However, some of the areas that saw resettlement were not as far eastward and as such, they are a part of the current German state.

I would guess that it is trying to say that parts of the territory that was settled during "Ostsiedlung" is still part of the current German state. However, if that is what is meant, this sentence does not say that and should be fixed.

--Richard 15:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)