User talk:Ovadyah

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Contents 1 Welcome to the Wikipedia 2 Welcome to my Talk Page 3 Ebionites 4 Eye on Ebionites 5 Ebionite Dispute Resolution 6 Expounding of the Law 6.1 The Ascents of James 6.2 Abd al-Jabbar 7 Ebionites 8 PA noticeboard 9 Ebionites 10 Noahide Laws 11 Safiyya bint Huyayy 12 Wikilogos 13 Ebionites - FA 14 Noahides 15 Ebionites RFC 16 Ebionites and Expounding of the Law 17 Peer Review for FA 18 Edit block? 19 Edit conflict 20 Ebionites edit war? 21 Ebionites Wip 22 Micheal C. Price 23 Ebionite Jewish Community 24 Finishing the Ebionites article 25 Origen on Ebionites

[edit] Welcome to the Wikipedia

Here are some links I thought useful:

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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~~~~.

Be Bold!

Sam [Spade] 18:43, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome to my Talk Page

Feel free to leave a message, but please, be courteous. --Ovadyah 15:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites

Hi Ovadyah,

thanks for some sane input into the Ebionite discussion. I've had a look at some of your user page. Does the Ebionite Jewish Community follow the Gospel of the Hebrews and Clementine literature on the subject?

--Michael C. Price ^talk 08:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Michael,

I'm glad I could help. There are many eyes watching over the Ebionite page including some pretty senior admins. I think they are just sitting back and letting us handle things.

The point of the user page is to demonstrate what other people are saying about modern Ebionites, rather than what Ebionites are saying about themselves (take a hint Nazirene & co). There is not just one small group but a great diversity. Some are residing in the USA and others in Israel. From the polemical commentary of their detractors, you can see they have much in common, and it's not gnostic new wave stuff. One thing I could have pointed out on the talk page but didn't is that Alan Cronshaw was a member of the Ebionite Community -- until he was kicked out. That may help to put some of the emotional tirades in context. Everybody knows Shemayah. It's kind of like a loose extended family.

The EC does not think the Gospel of the Hebrews or the Clementine literature provide any more reliable insights into the ancient Ebionites than the New Testament. The pseudo-Clementines are heavily overlayed with gnostic stuff from later centuries. There is a core document in there somewhere of the Kerygmata Petrou, but it's hard to reconstruct it. That makes it easy for someone to come along and just pick and choose what they want. I think the Gospel of the Ebionites was probably written in Rome by Theodotus the Cobbler, but I can't prove it. His group had a very similar low christology to the Ebionites, but they were Gentiles and probably didn't follow Jewish law. --Ovadyah 01:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- this is a fascinating subject. Even if you can't prove Theodotus the Cobbler wrote the Gospel of the Ebionites it might be worth mentioning this as a possibility (if sources are available) or just pointing out some of the similarities between them. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eye on Ebionites

Could you keep an eye on the Ebionites page? We have some newbies causing quite a ruckus. I just went thru an RFC there and things are getting a bit out of hand. Ovadyah 00:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've improved both the Ebionites and Talk:Ebionites page. I've also added my comments to the debate about Modern Ebionites. I hope all of this helps. Unfortunately, since I am busy, I won't be able to do more but I will try to keep an eye on things. --Loremaster 15:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

After reviewing all the debates on the talk page, I've come to conclusion that it is wiser to delete the Modern Ebionites section. --Loremaster 21:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionite Dispute Resolution

I've created the following two articles and mentioned them in the See also section of the Ebionites article:

• Ebionite Jewish Community
• Ebionite Restoration Movement

Since you have a vested interest in one of these articles surviving a speedy deletion attempt or a full article for deletion debate, I suggest you not only watch over it but also improve and expand it.

I also suggest you move any debate about these two religious groups to their respective talk pages.

• Talk:Ebionite Jewish Community
• Talk:Ebionite Restoration Movement

The Talk:Ebionites talk page is only for discussing changes to the Ebionites article. --Loremaster 14:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expounding of the Law

Sources also suggest that Ebionites believed all Jews and Gentiles must observe Mosaic Law but it must be understood through an expounding of the Law by Jesus elevated to the status of "Prophet like Moses".

What evidence can you provide to support the sentence above without relying on Panarion 30.18.7-9? --Loremaster 05:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Ascents of James

Epiphanius refers to a Jewish-Christian work called "The Ascents of James." In The Ascents of James: History and Theology of a Jewish-Christian Community by Robert E. Van Voorst (1989), Van Voorst argues that parts of this work were incorporated into Chapter 1 of the Recognitions of Clement, and he attempts to reconstruct the original text from the Latin and Syriac versions. Based on this reconstruction, Van Vorst comments on the christology of the Ascents of James (Chp. 5, pp. 163-164), Jesus is the Mosaic Prophet for three reasons, First, and most important for the AJ, he is the one who has come to complete the ministry of Moses. He came to abolish the rite of sacrifice, a concession considered never to have been a part of the law, substituting baptism in its place (1.36.1-2, 1.39.2) ^[1]. Second, Jesus modelled his choice of first twelve and then seventy-two disciples after the action of Moses in choosing his "disciples" (1.40.4). Third, Jesus is the Prophet like Moses in that he performs miracles which are like those of Moses (1.41.4). The Mosaic-Prophet christology is especially suited to a Jewish-Christian community like the AJ, as it stresses Jesus' ties to the OT and the Mosaic Law. We noted, indeed, in Chapter 4 that the AJ has the most highly developed use of the Mosaic Prophet in early Christian literature.

Assessing the community of the Ascents of James, Van Voorst asks (Chp. 5 pp. 176-177), Is it proper to call the community of the AJ "Jewish-Christian"? and he goes on to state, In practice, the community of the AJ is composed of law-observant Jews. They keep the Jewish feasts and customs; they may practice circumcision. In belief, they are Jewish-Christian as well. Their christology, that of the Mosaic Prophet, is rooted in Jewish belief. And he concludes, We can affirm, therefore, the judgement of J.L. Martyn on the AJ: "There is, in fact, no section of the Clementine literature about whose origin in Jewish-Christianity one may be more certain". ^[2]

And is the Ascents of James Ebionite? On this, Van Voorst opines (Chp. 5 pp. 179-180), We have argued that the AJ can properly be called a Jewish-Christian document. Is it Ebionite as well? Epiphanius describes it as an Ebionite book, but as Klijn and Reinink remark, "Epiphanius starts from the mistaken assumption that everything Jewish-Christian must be called Ebionite." ^[3]. Many researchers from Hilgenfeld to Schoeps have applied this name to R 1.33-71. Here again we encounter a problem of definition. He goes on to state, However, most modern researchers reserve this term for the more extreme forms of Jewish Christianity, especially those holding an adoptionist christology opposed to any form of pre-existence. An ideal of poverty is also characteristic of Ebionism. As the AJ has a form of pre-existence christology and shows no evidence of adoptionism or an ideal of poverty, its community probably should not be considered Ebionite.

Footnotes

[edit] Abd al-Jabbar

In The Jewish Christians Of The Early Centuries Of Christianity According To A New Source by Shlomo Pines, he states, In an attempt to sum up the mission of Jesus, our texts state: (folio 70a) Christ came in order to vivify and establish the Torah. Hereupon a saying of Jesus is cited which is very similar to, but not quite identical with, Matthew v:17-19:

He said: "I come to you. For this reason I shall act in accordance with the Torah and the precepts of the prophets who were before me. I did not come to diminish, but, on the contrary, to complete" (or fulfill: mutammiman) . "In truth, as far as God is concerned, it is more easy for the heaven to fall upon the earth than to take away anything from the Law of Moses. Whoever diminishes anything in it shall be called diminished."

The text adds that Jesus and his disciples acted in this manner until he departed from this world. This passage clearly has a bearing on Christology (a subject which will now briefly engage our attention) as conceived in these texts. For it seems to imply that Jesus' rank was that of a prophet. Another passage (fol. 52a) clearly states that Jesus himself laid claim to this rank only.

He (Jesus) stated (dhakara) that he was an envoy (rasul) of God (sent) to those created by Him (ila khalqihi),and that God bad sent him, as He had sent the prophets prior to him.

The text of al-Jabbar continues (fol. 70a),

He and his companions behaved constantly in this manner, until he left this world. He said to his companions: "Act as you have seen me act, instruct people in accordance with instructions I have given you, and be for them what I have been for you." His companions behaved constantly in this manner and in accordance with this. And so did those who (came) after the first generation of his companions, and (also) those who came long after (the second generation). Then they began to make changes and alterations, (to introduce) innovations into the religion (al-din), to seek dominion (ri`asa), to make friends with people by (indulging) their passions, to (try) to circumvent the Jews and to satisfy the anger (which) they (felt) against the latter, even if (in doing so) they (had) to abandon the religion. This is clear from the Gospels which are with them and to which they refer and from their book, known as the Book of Praxeis (Acts). It is (written) there: A group (qawm) of Christians left Jerusalem (bayt al-maqdis) and came to Antioch and other towns of Syria (a1-Sham). They called upon the people (to obey) the law (al-sunna) of the Torah, to forbid offering sacrifices to those who have not the necessary qualifications (laysa min ahliha) (to practise) circumcision, to observe the Sabbath, to prohibit pork and other things (forbidden) by the Torah. These things were regarded as burdensome by the Gentiles and they took little notice (of the exhortations). Thereupon, the Christians of Jerusalem forgathered to take counsel as to the stratagems which were to be employed with regard to the Gentiles in order (to make) the latter respond and obey them. They were of the opinion that it was necessary to mix with the Gentiles, to make them concessions (rukhs), to descend to (the level of) their erroneous beliefs, to eat (a portion) of the sacrifices they offer, to adopt their customs and to approve of their way (of life). And they composed a book on this.

The events related in this quotation seem to correspond more or less to those referred to in Acts xi: 17-22 (or 21; cf. also xv:1-29). However, the attitude of the canonical Acts towards the conversion of the Gentiles in Antioch which they welcome, is diametrically opposed to that of the quotation which deplores the abandonment of the exigencies of the Mosaic Law with a view to this conversion.

[edit] Ebionites

Done. For what it is worth, I think if you and others can follow all my suggestions yiou will have made a signal contribution to Wikipedia. Good luck, Slrubenstein | Talk 21:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If the editing gets disruptive enough, you can take it to WP:AN/I and ask for a ban of some sort. I would think the continual recreation of that deleted article would be compelling evidence in that regard. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ov, sorry to hear things have gotten angry at the Ebionite page. Without getting in the specifics of this conversation that's been going on and without taking anyone's side (I haven't even read all of whta' gone on), my advice in cases like this is to try to keep the focus on the content issues. Of course, that's sometimes hard to do when harsh words have been said, but it's still the thing to do. At the end of the day, the article itself is everything-- other people's opinions of you are nothing. So, the important thing is to keep your eye on the article, let the harsh words fall the the wayside, and just be impeccably civil yourself, no matter what. Because insults and incivility don't disparage the person they're directed at-- they just reflect badly on the person they originate from.

Looking over the talk page right now, it's not clear what the outstanding content disputes are right now, so I'm not sure what to comment on-- but I'll add Ebionites back to my watchlist and try to chime in with my two cents on future debates.

--Alecmconroy 00:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PA noticeboard

Thanks for letting me know. I try not to comment on these kinds of issues, in case I need to get involved as an arbitrator. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites

Thanks for the note. I think it is much improved. However, I don't really have any comments to add to my peer-review comments. My advice to you now is to seek the feedback of other very knowledgable editors: specifically, user:Haldrik; user:Jayjg; user:CTSWyneken; and user:Wesley. They may suggest others (well-educated and informed on this topic) who can help, but I would start by requesting their feedback. They are all smart but come from diverse points of view; you will get a wide range of thoughtful advice from them. Good luck, Slrubenstein | Talk 06:45, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If time permits, I'll drop by. Please do not be disheartened if it takes a bit of time, however. As a librarian at the beginning of an academic term, this is one of my busy seasons.... --CTSWyneken^(talk) 11:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Noahide Laws

Hi, please join in the discussion on the Noahide Laws talk page about cleaning it up etc. Thanks! Chavatshimshon 08:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

(iv had a namechange) please suggest points in recategorising the article, it needs a total wipe-over so we can have it featured. Suggest anything, I havent thought of where to start myself!! FrummerThanThou 04:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to do some reading up on this topic and better understand what the dispute is, but I will help you get it organized. Ovadyah 13:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Safiyya bint Huyayy

Please also help my out with the above article! Check the talk page, I would like the concubine word to appear in the article about her but an editor keeps taking it out! Would much appreciate it! FrummerThanThou 04:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to pass on this one, at least for now. Two contentious articles are all I can handle at a time. Ovadyah 13:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikilogos

I thought you might be interested in my proposal for Wikipedia to use logo variations created by members of the wiki community to mark national and international awareness days, Remembrance Days, notable anniversaries, and observance days. Please comment on Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Logo Variations and on my talk page. Thanks! FrummerThanThou 11:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites - FA

Thanks for letting me know, I'll try to take a look. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Noahides

Hi, since it there are no WP:rules for having citations in the lead if the topic is covered in the body of the article, i will be moving the refs further down. Will be working on it in time. By the way, whats the nature of your interest in the Ebionites? What info is there of them in Hebron? Just wondering. Ta frummer 23:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with moving the citations out of the lead, as long as they appear somewhere in the body. I haven't done that with the Ebionites article because the lead is bombarded with fact checks from hostile editors. I have been interested in the Ebionites for a long time. After the Talmidi article was deleted for lack of notability, I set up my user page to gather evidence of modern Ebionite movements. There is a lot going on in Israel, apparently, but I don't know about Hebron specifically. Ovadyah 16:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites RFC

You should always feel free to file an additional RFC whenever you want more eyes. Responding to an RFC isn't really an official capacity or anything. I will try to take a look at the ebionite article when real life stop interfering. :) --Alecmconroy 03:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites and Expounding of the Law

Hello Ovadyah. Although the source we currently have is sufficient, do you have more sources supporting the connection between Ebionites and the Expounding of the Law? --Loremaster 17:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review for FA

Please respond to my question that can be found at the bottom of Talk:Ebionites#Peer Review for FA section as soon as possible. Thank you. --Loremaster 11:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit block?

Should we ask an administrator to block the article from further editing until the neutrality dispute is resolved? --Loremaster 00:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I have decided to let the historical revisionists win in order to get to FA. --Loremaster 11:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I am now very busy off-Wiki. When I return, I promise that I will deal with this situation decisively. Meanwhile, keep the process moving toward FA. Please avoid getting yourself into edit wars with Michael. Just stick to the facts, nothing more than that. I want to be able to work with you when we are done with this business. :-) Ovadyah 18:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Although you may be unhappy with some changes, I'm actually satisfied with the current version of the Ebionites article. See Talk:Ebionites#Moving On. I've enabled my email function so feel free to write me if you need. :) --Loremaster 16:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit conflict

sorry, it is beyond my knowledge, I can't help here. My advice: reread WP:NPOV and WP:NOR policies and ensure both sides conform to both policies rigorously, that may be enough to forge a compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites edit war?

There doesn't seem to be an edit war there that I can tell; have things calmed down? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, things have calmed down. ;) --Loremaster 22:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think just knowing that other editors and admins have their eyes on the page helps a lot. Thanks for responding. Ovadyah 00:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionites Wip

Would you approve of the structure and content of this draft if we unlocked the Ebionites article? --Loremaster 13:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually quite satisfied withe current version of Ebionites/wip. I think this conflict with Michael has actually resulted in the article becoming much better than it was before he came along. The new structure and content can now accomodate everyone's POVs. --Loremaster 18:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Micheal C. Price

Let me know when you have had enough of this nonsense and are ready to take Michael to RFC. Ovadyah 07:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this will be necessary. Let's just wait till Micheal makes his final contributions to the Ebionites/wip page and proceed from there. --Loremaster 17:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ebionite Jewish Community

Running into it on random pages, I just want to let you know that Ebionite Jewish Community is currently a prime candidate for a WP:CSD#A7 speedy deletion, and would also qualify for regular deletion per WP:WEB due to lack of third party coverage. Sandstein 11:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finishing the Ebionites article

I'm currently satisfied with the last version of the Ebionites article I've edited. Can you work on standardizing the footnotes and cited sources?

--Loremaster 13:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've done all the work. I only need Panarion 30. --Loremaster 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origen on Ebionites

Approximately when did Origen write on the Ebionites? --Loremaster 21:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The Wiki article on Origen says the De Principiis was probably written between 212 and 215 ca. Ovadyah 17:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I failed to notice that. Thank you. --Loremaster 20:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)