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Contents 1 Queen Latifah? 2 The rest of the world 3 Let someone who knows this stuff *inside out* guide you... 4 Male equivalent 5 Why does plus modeling exist? 6 Listing of models 7 Christina Schmidt? 8 SUBSTANTIAL EDIT! 8.1 Chronology 8.2 Lane Bryant financials 8.3 Diet ads in Grace 8.4 Models vs Celebrities, etc debate 8.4.1 Crystal Renn Entry 8.4.2 Mia Tyler 8.4.3 Johanna Dray 8.4.4 Camryn Manheim 8.4.5 Jennifer Hudson 8.4.6 Toccara Jones 8.4.7 Notability of Agencies

[edit] Queen Latifah?

Just wondering, should Queen Latifah be added to this page? Mayukhers112 21:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

She is not a fashion model, but a celeb spokesperson. She is not signed with an agency as a model. Lil Flip246 16:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Why would this web-site print a such hateful comment :Clearly, that person is very unhappy and should try and get some medical help .

Uh, are you talking about me, lol? I didn't mean my comment to be offensive at all, and I don't really know how it is anyway...Queen Latifah has a beautiful body! Mayukhers112 02:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The rest of the world

"A plus-size model is a female fashion model who wears a dress size 14 or higher (in North American sizing)."

I'd be inclined to believe that the term isn't exclusive to North America. And that it isn't universally defined across all parts of the world where the term is in use. (Moreover, what are you people claiming is the equivalent term for men?)

There are most certainly other ways in which the article ought to be improved to be more geographically neutral. -- Smjg 01:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• True, the term is definitely not exclusive to North America, but we have to measure it somehow. Someone needs to look up the equivalent of a size 14 in various cultures, and put it on there.

As for the MALE equivalent, I think that's hard to define. Plus size female models are beautiful full-figured women who are in good shape even though they don't have small measurements (anyone who is seriously overweight isn't typically a fashion model.

Apply this description to a man: "a beautiful full-figured man who is in good shape..." Well that sounds like a big muscle man, who is basically a typical male model. Basically what I'm saying is that mainstream media tell us that girls should be slim, so that's what the majority of female fashion models are, but they tell us that men should be big (muscle, not fat), so that's what most male fashion models are. The equivalent, therefore, of a plus-size model in the male fashion world would be a skinny guy (I hope that makes sense). However, society seems to be much more accepting of men of different sizes than they are of different sized women for whatever reason, so I think male models vary in size more than female.

I made that more complicated than I meant to. Basically, a plus-size female model might be 5'10 and weigh 170 pounds, but those same numbers on a guy makes him just a regular male model.Rgrizza 02:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

As an English-language term, "plus-size model" IS primarily situated in a North American context. Other countries have equivalent terms in their own individual languages, and therefore equivalent entires (with equivalent sizes) can be made in the different language sections of Wikipedia. The British have never adopted the term exclusively. They still use a variety of terms, including "outsize model," therefore, "plus-size model" should retain its North American context. It would also encumber the article greatly to list all of the different sizes in all of the different countries. Those, as stated earlier, can be listed in the separate language sections of Wikipedia (e.g., the German size in an equivalent entry in wikipedia.de, using the equivalent German phrase for this type of model). KameraObscura 05:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)KameraObscura

I'm quite sure I've seen the term used in British media, but I forget where. Besides, A Google search for "plus-size" gives a fair number of UK hits on the first page of results, and even UK sites mentioning "plus-size model" aren't that rare. I'm not sure what the definition is over here, but guess it starts somewhere around size 16 (which I think is about the same as an American 14). Maybe it starts at 18. I'm not sure. Maybe it isn't so clearly defined. "Outsize" isn't a term I've any real experience of, though I've heard that OUAT it was common over here as a size between L and XL in the S/M/L 'system'.

And even if the term "plus-size" were restricted to a small area of the world, that would be irrelevant. It goes without saying that, on such basis, the article should at least mention something about terms with similar meaning in other English-speaking countries. -- Smjg 23:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I added the equivalent Australian and British numbers. (Australian sizing is a tad smaller than North American sizing, but plus-size modelling begins at a smaller size there, so the equivalent 14 is valid.) Will this do? I still think that it's more appropriate to enter the French, German, Italian etc. sizes in corresponding-language entries in the different linguistic versions of Wikipedia. KameraObscura 02:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)KameraObscura

It's a little better now. But the way it's phrased as I write, I can see people being tempted to think that American size 14 and Australian size 14 are the same thing. I'm just trying to think how it can be written better.... -- Smjg 20:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the article can only get so involved in sizing particulars, because even those might ultimately vary (from one designer to the next, for example), which is a whole separate tangent. I think we have to make some generalizations. But I differentiated U.S. from Australia. Anything else? KameraObscura 21:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let someone who knows this stuff *inside out* guide you...

On topic: plus size models are deemed, by the agencies representing them, to be any model that does not meet the standard sizing of regular models. Plus models will tell you that the label given them is global, as business is now international and Plus Size model is the generally accepted term. People who use other terms are guilty only of being overly PC or sensitive to sizist criticism, however in usual business the term Plus Size Model is quite acceptable and preferable above all others.

Plus size models are generally, in the US, UK and Australia (regardless of equivalent sizing) models who measure above the standard regular model bust-waist-hips measurements of 36-24-36. Therefore, you will often find models at a US size 8 or 10 being marketed as plus size. Popular opinion is greatly divided on the topic; many feel that the existing population of models does not represent the consumer at a size 8 and therefore will say that plus-size models *should* start at size 14, however within the actual business of modeling this is not the case. It should be decided by the editing overlords how to proceed with this page. There is a fair whiff of vanity attached to mentioning any particular model within the description of what a plus model is; any model should be named separately outside of the intial introduction, and perhaps only those with existing Wiki pages or solid external links left undeleted.

As for a table or other diagram showing equivalent dress sizing; this is problematic and not necessary within the description of what a plus model is or does. I will edit the paragraph to show a more accurate description of a plus size model and let you decide how to edit. BGModels 08:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

---

The discussion page exists to discuss alterations to the entry. As noone is disputing that the models are smaller than the consumers of plus clothing, why is the opening line being reverted to the less factual previous edit? BGModels 21:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Male equivalent

To date, there is no existing male equivalent internationally in the modeling industry for plus size clothing. Do not concern yourself with the issue at this point. I am 100% that when it happens, men will be given a different label, such as 'Big and Tall', as is currently the usual description of the relevant larger clothing they advertise. - BGModels 09:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why does plus modeling exist?

It is widely acknowledged, if not entirely accepted, that the population of the world is becoming larger in terms of body dimensions. The business of modeling plus size clothing exists to sell larger size clothing, period. It did not arise because of an alleged revival of classical values; that perspective is purely subjective and I believe KameraObscura knows this, evidenced by the removal of my mention of the JudgmentofParis website from my entry, "Let someone who knows this business guide you". KameraObscura: If you wish to edit discussions, please restrict yourself to editing your own.

For the sake of correctness and impartiality, I suggest an edit to state something along the lines of "Plus-size models are often shown in advertising images in contexts that reflect the voluptuous Classical ideal of feminine beauty, as defined by sculptures such as the Venus de' Medici and the Winged Victory of Samothrace--i.e., the aesthetic ideal that generally prevailed throughout Western history, until well into the twentieth century." This is more factual and less subjective than as it stands now. - BGModels 20:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Listing of models

As the Wiki is against vanity and meritless entries, and approximately half of the names listed have no supporting Wiki pages, the listing should be deleted. Any person visiting the resource websites given will be able to access the information via directories and forums and these resource listings are more likely to be updated and keep live than Wiki entries; to whit, the Wiki page for Emme is in dire need of update, yet she is the one person that has the most merit to be attached to this entry. - BGModels 20:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

• Have noted that the listing of agencies has been culled by Yandman as not pertaining to concept of plus-size models, however could argue that listing of models allows for vanity listings and does not pertain to concept directly either. Can someone who knows how please devise a contents table to allow listings of models (and shortfrom bios, maybe?) to be attached to this page so they aren't tempted to list as separate Wiki entries?? BGModels 20:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
• Some existing separate entries should remain, however, especially if individuals have separate credits that precede, or are in a addition to, plus-size modelling. 24.215.36.168 02:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Christina Schmidt?

One cable TV show does not a celebrity make. Can anyone suggest another example of a celebrity that worldwide readers may actually recognise? BGModels 20:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Degrassi is seen in many countries around the world. Wikipedia lists several, but I know that there are more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrassi:_The_Next_Generation#Broadcast_history

Christina in unique in having this credit, and being signed as a professional plus-size model with Wilhelmina, one of the top two New York agencies for plus-size models. This better warrants a mention in an article about plus-size models than a celebrity who is not officially signed to the plus-size division of a major agency. 24.215.36.168 00:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Debate whether an entry about celebrities under 'related information' is necessary to plus-size modeling then, instead of who is appropriate. 'Size acceptance' is a different topic to 'plus-size model', however the growth of the business of plus-size modeling depends on increasing size-acceptance in society. Latifah is more widely notable in this regard than Schmidt, even if Schmidt's fledgling resume impresses some people more than Latifah's extensive and Oscar-nominated filmographic credits (as per IMDB.com) and constant international press coverage. Latifah, by virtue of being a plus-sized woman appearing in a typical model context (a cosmetics advertising campaign) historically not open to plus-size models must reasonably be deemed to have appeared both as a model and to have greatly furthered the opportunities for plus-size models, celebrity status notwithstanding. Upon viewing the noted Degrassi Wikipage, Schmidt has 2 bare mentions; one under listings for past cast members, and the other about her character's on-off appearances. Nothing about the character she portrayed rates a mention.

• Besides which, the entry as it stands makes no claim to Latifah being a plus-size model; perhaps some editing is required to move the entry to a more appropriate place in the page. As for the criteria that a celebrity must be represented by a plus-division of a major agency to be deemed a model: that is poor reasoning to apply to someone who needs agency management far beyond modeling opportunities. Latifah is on the roster of William Morris Agency, acknowledged by many to be the most powerful artist management company in the world William Morris Agency's Queen Latifah page BGModels 23:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SUBSTANTIAL EDIT!

I hope that what has been added makes sense, and adheres to an encyclopaedic format and concept. I've written a potted history of US modeling, a blurb about Mode and it's influence, a somewhat self-deduced state of the industry statement (which strictly speaking isn't able to be substantiated but is tangible) and revised the model entries with text from their personal websites and agency pages. Phew! BGModels 09:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the list of Mode models not getting a bit lengthy? Just wondering. Some of its girls definitely received a spotlight (e.g., Kate, Natalie, and Barbara had editorials, covers, and write-ups in the magazine), some of the other girls simply appeared there. Difficult to think of a cut-off for mention, so to speak (Manon? Casey McCabe?), but perhaps it is always better to identify more than less. 24.215.36.168 04:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Do some of the model descriptions not have a bit of a promotional tone, which might not suit the encyclopedic style--e.g., "unique looks and megawatt smile," and "the nicest model in the business"? (Not disputing either quality, merely wondering if they fit, here.) 24.215.36.168 07:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology

Am quite certain that the existence of the Ford 12+ division predates Gary Dakin's involvement. Instead of "to start" the division, perhaps text should read "to head" the division? 24.215.36.168 10:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• If you are certain, then do you have a year for it? As far as I know Dakin left Curves to start 12+ and shortly thereafter all models from Curves followed him there, decimating that companys' division. Perhaps he 'developed' the division rather than started it. BGModels 20:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
• In Constantine Valhouli's "Curve" Documentary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0299728/) Gary Dakin states the following on camera: "We're celebrating our 25th anniverary of the Ford 12+ division. It was the first and longest-existing plus division in the industry." IMDb lists Curve as a 2002 release, but a preliminary cut was, I believe, released in 2001. Dialing back 25 years from that would mean either 1977 or 1976 as the origin of Ford 12+. Anyway, "develop" seems right. 24.215.36.168 23:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
• It would be pertinent to add this to the entry. Surprised you didn't. BGModels 20:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lane Bryant financials

Stating that the demise of the Lane Bryant show was a direct consequence of a specific Charming Shoppes financial plan, complete with figures, might require a footnote. 24.215.36.168 05:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• Figures quoted are applied to the specifics of the transaction and reported CRP, which are freely available on the Lane Bryant website and other business reporting sites. As the demise of the 'event' fashion show (as opposed to in-store and other small scale productions) is not directly spoken to in any LB press release on their website and is in fact invisible on the internet as far as public-access research can ascertain, the parallel was drawn in the sense of chronology of the events. There is mention of a 'holiday' showing in 2004 on certain public forums (JoP et al) however there is no specific information remaining in the links they provide back to Lane Bryant. BGModels 21:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diet ads in Grace

Did Grace run diet ads? Am fairly certain that it did not. (This was Figure's dubious distinction.) 24.215.36.168 09:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Grace ran Hanson's Diet Soda and Slim Fast, as far as I can recall for certain. Not given as sole reason for failure of Grace, anyway BGModels 20:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Models vs Celebrities, etc debate

[edit] Crystal Renn Entry

I do not think that Crystal Renn appeared on Larry King. She did appear on Oprah, Entertainment Tonight, Showbiz Tonight, and 20/20. Perhaps only Oprah should be mentioned, otherwise the list becomes quite long--and then, one might need to list Kate Dillon's TV appearances, Mia Tyler's, and so on. 24.215.36.168 10:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps just saying 'appeared on numerous high-profile talk shows' will suffice.BGModels 20:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Was Renn actually the first plus model in Rolling Stone, or might that have been Mia Tyler? Would any presence of Tyler for a client in Rolling Stone need to be verified against Wilhelmina's dates of representation or is that nitpicking (viz a viz discussion on Queen Latifah?) BGModels 21:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mia Tyler

Of Tyler's many magazine appearances, I have no record of her in Rolling Stone, at least not as a fashion model. If she was in said magazine, given its subject matter, perhaps it was in the context of an article about her father? Also, Renn's inclusion in Rolling Stone consisted of a Torrid ad, yes? That's the only Rolling Stone appearance of which I know, for Crystal. Does that count, in this specific context? This goes to the relative weighting of editorial appearances vs. advert appearances, for models. (E.g., back in the 1980s, there was at least one Lane Bryant ad in Vogue, with unfamiliar but seemingly-full-figured models, but one would still be inclined to call Kate Dillon's spread the "first" appearance of a plus-size model in U.S. Vogue, no?) 24.215.36.168 04:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Johanna Dray

Google has it wrong about the Galliano show with Johanna being haute couture. It was pret-a-porter. The Vogue Web site identifies the "Everybody's beautiful" show as 2006 RTW: http://www.style.com/fashionshows/collections/S2006RTW/review/JNGALLNO

Note Johanna Dray pictured, tag: "Spring 2006 Ready-to-Wear": http://www.style.com/fashionshows/collections/S2006RTW/complete/slideshow/JNGALLNO?event=show1381&designer=design_house26&trend=&iphoto=21

The Spring 2006 haute couture show features no plus-size models: http://www.style.com/fashionshows/collections/S2006CTR/complete/thumb/CDIOR

• Of course, any 'RTW' item shown by a designer who doesn't usually make any RTW garment over a EU44 must be made-to-measure (aka couture), as the 3 plus girls' dresses were. Dray's dress took 5 weeks in India to complete. Still, one must accept Style.com/Vogue's word on the matter. BGModels 20:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Camryn Manheim

Camryn Manheim never appeared in or promoted a Lane Bryant runway show, nor was she visible in any major company promotions of which I am aware.

• Camryn appeared as part of a Lane Bryant/Venezia runway presentation on June 29, 1999 at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York. A simple Google search would have told you that. BGModels 21:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Google searches have been wrong before (witness the Dray discussion), but in the absence of contradictory evidence, will accept this point in this case. 24.215.36.168 22:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
    • "Camryn Manheim" "Lane Bryant" entered into Google yields entries that are all differently phrased, and speaking of her involvement as a spokesperson with LB. There are also media sources quoting Manheim in interview (Dimensions Magazine, etc) that verify this information. BGModels 07:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
    • My point about Galliano's specially made garments for the plus models still stands; the dress Dray wore, and indeed the dress Velvet wore also were later sold only as haute couture, no matter how they were presented at the actual show. This information is not in the public domain (I know Ms. Dray personally), and Vogue of course would not have cared to make the differentiation.
    • While Google is only as good as the humans who put info online and care to metatag it appropriately, it should be noted that a Google search is the first approach that the Wikipedia admins use to verify authenticity and merit of an entry, so I am merely following their example of trust in the search engineBGModels 07:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jennifer Hudson

• Jennifer Hudson is not a plus-size model, but a plus-size celebrity. Should one not try to make a distinction? Broader parameters that include Hudson would make Oprah the first plus-size celebrity to appear on the cover of Vogue. This entry could become unwieldy, if it were to include every single mainstream magazine appearance by plus-size female celebrities. Just for one example, Rosie O'Donnell had a magazine under her own name, for a while, for which she appeared on numerous covers. Does this make her a plus-size model? Representation by a plus-size division of a major modelling agency, or by a notable plus-size agency per se, would seem to be a useful way to draw a distinction. 24.215.36.168 04:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• • Hudson is listed under Plus-Size Celebrities, not notable models. As has been proven with the Latifah example, one does not need to be with a model agent to attract model work. Hudson is wearing clothes that Vogue's designer clientele hope to sell off the back of their association with her; is this not the very essence of the act of modeling? BGModels 21:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comments about Oprah and Rosie noted; if the magazine were named Hudson and not Vogue they might be relevant. Oprah lost a reported 30 pounds before she was allowed on the cover of Vogue, so she was not plus at the time of her appearance on the Vogue cover. Please don't start debating over whether yo-yo dieting celebs are plus or not, that is beside the point of how they physically presented themselves at the time of their appearance in the media for a specific event, such as a magazine cover. BGModels 21:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• The conflation of plus-size celebrities with plus-size models remains problematic. Countless straight-size celebrities appear in fashion magazines. Does this make them straight-size models? And more precisely, does this make them relevant to an encyclopedic entry concerning straight-size fashion models? Are Britney, Paris Hilton, etc. fashion models, simply because they occasionally model clothing, in addition to their other career paths? Suggest that a separate entry for plus-size celebrities, who occasionally model, but are not with agencies, would be helpful. 24.215.36.168 22:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I believe that the existing headline and entry separate the categories sufficiently. I don't think that the Wiki will allow a separate entry but you are welcome to see what happens. I think they'll just refer back here.BGModels 06:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Otherwise, write up a motion as to what the definition of model/celebrity should be, and lay it out it clearly. If there are clearer parameters the question will be easier to answer on an individual basis. I'd like you to consider in your response the example of recording artist Syleena Johnson, previously listed with Wilhelmina NYC. Has this person ever appeared as a plus-size model? Can someone not actively engaged in the business on (i.e.) monthly basis call themselves a model by virtue of having a model agent? Is celebrity better assigned to those women whose names are clearly known to the general public? This would then reopen the debate as to the merit of including Christina Schmidt, and to a certain degree Mia Amber, among others. The definition of celebrity/model should also be considered at an international level, not merely a Nth American/Hollywood viewpoint. BGModels 06:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toccara Jones

This entry is going to be cut back until sufficient substantition regarding "several Magazine covers" is provided. Names and citations, please!! ~~BG Models —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.36.120.8 (talk) 01:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Notability of Agencies

A general query towards User:24.215.36.168's insistence that plus-size models need to be with 'notable' agencies. Defining notability of an agent/agency is entirely subjective and is not relevant to the definition of 'plus-size model'. Work is work, no matter where it comes from. To whit, some of the smallest US boutique agents have landed huge campaigns for their models, such as Nicole LeBris gaining national exposure with Just My Size via Flaunt agency in NYC, and Taylor Bartoe working for Lane Bryant via Brand LA some years ago. I'm sure you will agree that both of these women meet the basic criteria to be considered as 'plus-size models', regardless of their representatives. BGModels 21:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• Not insisting, recommending and suggesting. This is a discussion. Would have regarded these agencies as notable as well. All points here are subjective to a degree--e.g., which campaigns are "huge," and how "huge" is measured. 24.215.36.168 22:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Flaunt is notable? *shrugs* Not by comparative standards of management, profile or success of models represented, but yes, I suppose it is a subjective - if educated - opinion I hold. BGModels 06:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • HUGE: A model would be very pleased to secure a booking for a client that will pay them additional monies over their standard day rate for extended usage rights (aka buyout, loading). If this amount is 2 or more times than the day rate they received, then that would be a very good amount indeed. If there is national exposure in a high-profile outlet (i.e. People Magazine) then better still. The JMS example is a complicated one because it involves lingerie packaging buyouts but trust me, the money was most definitely huge. BGModels 06:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)