Talk:Qi

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Contents 1 Possible Trivia 2 Archived talk 3 Pronunciation? 4 In Japanese 5 In the FarEast 6 Characters in article 7 Martial arts 8 Spam 9 fundamental sources 10 Qi in the martial arts 11 A major addition 12 And a deletion 13 Neo-Confucianism? 14 Confusion?

[edit] Possible Trivia

'Qi' is in the UK dictionary, but not the US. It is a commonly-used word in UK Scrabble, as it uses a Q without a U.

[edit] Archived talk

• Archive 1 (25 October 2001-30 May 2006)

[edit] Pronunciation?

I've always known the word to be pronouned 'chee'. Is this correct, or is the word mispronounced because of the common 'ch' spelling? The other spellings make it look as though it would be pronounced 'kee'. Could someone in the know add a pronunciation to this article?--Jcvamp 05:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The Mandarin pronunciation of the word is indeed "chee" with a kind of clipped quality, the "falling" fourth tone of Mandarin. In Japanese, it is ki or "kee" without any tonal consideration. In other dialects and languages it varies considerably. The pinyin romanisation "qi", despite becoming more common, is not a satisfactory spelling in any event. --Fire Star 火星 00:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh okay. In terms of transliteration, I've always known 'q' to be pronounced 'k', which is why I asked. Shouldn't this article be renamed to reflect the more common 'ch' spelling?--Jcvamp 22:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't. There should be a better pronunciation guide for those, like yourself, who know nothing about Pinyin. No offense intended - Pinyin is better than Wade-Giles ("Peking," "Tai Ch'i Chuan") but only at the cost of ease-of-use for many speakers of Western languages ("Beijing," "Taiji Chuan"). In Mandarin, the phoneme represented in English by "qi" is, as Fire Star correctly told you, pronounced like "chee" as in "cheese," only with a bit of a clipped quality to the initial sound. I've forgotten my descriptive phonology, but suffice it to say that if you start with a heavy shhhhhh! sound, open your lips a bit more, then head in the direction of Cheese, but keep it a very short sound, you're quite close. Compare to the difficulty of teaching an American how to pronounce "xiao" or "xie xie" or "Xing-Yi" (Hsing-I). In other words, your question is good, the answer is "no, but we should add to the entry."Eh Nonymous 10:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. At least my question could initiate a change for the better in the article.--Jcvamp 02:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The reason that the word is spelled "qi" in Pinyin romanization is that it was judged desirable to use different symbols for different sounds, and the sounds that we English speakers misinterpret as the same as the "ch" in "cheese" are actually two different ones. The English "ch" (for most but not all speakers) is made by placing the tip of the tongue on the "corner" of the hard ridge behind the upper front teeth. The Chinese "qi" sound is made by placing the tip of the tongue down behind the lower front teeth and making the tongue bell up so that the flat part of the tongue a half inch or so beyond the tip touches the aforementioned hard ridge area. On the other hand the "ch" sound that is represented by "ch" in Pinyin romanization is made with the tip of the tongue curled back in the mouth to a place close to the back hend of hard ridge that runs from front to back along the top of your mouth. (It took me a whole year in Taiwan to figure out the ji, qi, and xi sounds--all made in the same part of the mouth--and I could never hear the difference until a teacher happened to recite the alphabet as "a, b, xi, d, e, f, ji..." Suddenly the xi, and ji sounds stood out as the wrong sound--not for Chinese but for the English alphabet.)

All that being said, I'm not sure that we should have anything in the article other than a link to the pronunciation of Chinese sounds. When speakers with a prominent New Jersey accent speak English to the rest of us we notice the difference but we are not greatly impeded in our understanding of what they say. It hsppens that they are making their "gee," "chee," etc. sounds the way Chinese make theirs. So if Americans from other parts of the country can deal with the minor differences without great inconvenience, then Chinese people can probably tolerate a small variance in the opposite direction coming from most speakers of American English.

What is annoying to me is the mispronunciation of Beijing as "bay zhzhzhing." I don't know who learned the wrong way during Nixon's trip to China, but the incorrect speech sound seems to have propagated from that time. Maybe it was King Richard himself who got it wrong. Who would have dared to correct him? P0M 05:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Japanese

I've removed a bunch of stuff where somebody went off the deep end interpreting the phoneme "ki" as having deeper significance than it does in Japanese. It's just a word root that has different connotations depending on context, but usually related to feeling or energy. To tease out the root meanings and call it a literal meaning is something of a stretch. The Crow 02:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

---

[edit] In the FarEast

1. This concept may have been put forth initially as an explanation for the unexplainable in a time of limited scientific knowledge, but its practical use today is almost entirely related to physical exertion (especially martial arts) and traditional medicine. 2. In the martial arts, which are a form of exercise more than practical self-defense for most people today, the master instructs students to a. breathe fully and rhythmically b. be alert but not tense (not relaxed, although the breathing gives that impression) c. and to draw in energy from the air and all one's surroundings into oneself then redirect it through whatever physical motion you undertake (and not just for offensive or redirecting moves, but also for things like bracing for a strike to be inflicted upon oneself). a and b are familiar concepts to most serious athletes, and c is a good mental technique for heightening focus and environment (which includes opponents) awareness. Put all of them together and you have a pretty good mental approach to precision in both movement and generated energy (or force).

[edit] Characters in article

Does anyone else find the characters used as illustrative in the infobox to be confusing and inelegant? The "antique version" (I've seen original inscriptions of the "modern" character that date from ca. 500 BC) is unexplained and (to my mind) illegible, and I can read Chinese. --Fire Star 火星 03:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the style of the writing is much too fancy graphic design. It took a while to convice myself that he modern one was correct. I can't comment on the antique one. I just reduced the size as they were much to big in the version when they were introduced.[1] --Salix alba (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The "antique version" is just totally wrong. I can't even figure out how it would look if it were written out with a Chinese writing brush. It might be an attempt to represent some Daoist talismanic form or something (maybe it's supposed to be 炁?), but it has nothing to do with the way the Oracle Bone forms look. I can scan or otherwise reproduce a true Oracle Bone form. The explanation of the traditional character is wrong too. The present simplified form is actually the slightly stylized form of the original Oracle Bone form. The traditional form was originally used to refer to a kind of presentation of food to guests and diagrammed the qi or vapor rising from newly cooked rice that was so offered. That is why there is a 米 in there. Later on I suppose the rather sketchy original form of 氣 which is what you have left after removing the rice, was getting misread unless it was very carefully written so people started to use the more complicated character. Then when that happened they still needed a word for the guest-feeding-related term so they wrote 餼 for that meaning. P0M 06:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the image with a new image that gives correct information. P0M 08:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The new images are an improvement, thanks. --Fire Star 火星 21:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

What I would like to see but am not competent to add myself is the entire suite of historical characters for qi, using the same set as the Chinese character article: Oracle Bone Script, Seal Script, Clerical Script, Semi-Cursive Script, Cursive Script, Regular Script (Traditional), and Regular Script (Simplified). I have searched the web without success for such a reference set for qi. I would also like to know if there is a book in the reference section that covers the character representations of qi in depth. I am especially interested in the Oracle Bone form of the word, and wonder whether its usage today would create confusion with the character for the number 3 or with any other Chinese character, but this last question may be beyond the level of detail appropriate for a Wikipedia article. Even without any of these changes, the existing article is very useful, so thanks to those who have worked on it. Toad42 22:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The top of the article currently has the oracle, seal, and traditional forms. I guess we could put the whole set at the top of this talk page, but I don't think so much calligraphy belongs in the article. The Chines character for 3 is made with three very straight lines. The oracle bone form of qi is made with three wavy lines. It is possible that the later forms developed because sloppy writing could create mistakes in communication. P0M 00:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martial arts

Ther old section was a combination of several different versions and was mostly unsourced anecdote. To make things worse, there was a bit earlier in the article which also mentioned martial applications of the principle. I realise that I've pared it back somewhat drastically, but the links to Chinese martial arts and Japanese martial arts should allow people to follow up effectively without making this article overly tendentious {or mercenary). --Fire Star 火星 21:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spam

I just removed one commercial link. There appear to be lots of others, and it would be good to click through the list and remove any links to sites that promote businesses. P0M 06:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fundamental sources

I've started to put the fundamental references to qi in Chinese philosophical writings on the following sites:

1.

2.

3.

I think that when it is all available it will make it easier for everyone to improve the Wikipedia article. P0M 06:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added material. Most of the basic ideas regarding qi in philosophy texts are included in these three groups of quotations. P0M 00:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Qi in the martial arts

“

Qi is a central concept in many Chinese, Korean and Japanese martial arts. While a traditional Neo-Confucian explanation of the principle is given in most martial art schools, many New Age-oriented or neo-ninja schools approach the subject from a more syncretist point of view, especially in the west.

”

I'm not quite sure what is trying to be said here, but 'Neo-Confucian' and 'syncretist' doesn't quite explain their beliefs, only who they are. Reading the rest of the article helps somewhat, but there should be a more thorough explanation of the different beliefs regarding Qi in martial arts.

— Sasuke Sarutobi 11:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A major addition

I have put in a section on what the Chinese actually said about qi during the first several centuries. I note that much of the rest of this article lacks citations. Some of the ideas expressed seem plausible, but we need the actual citations.

At one point the text says something that I'd really like to have a citation for. Well, actually I think it is probably just wrong, but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt. The sentence is:

By contrast to some earlier thinkers, the Neo-Confucians criticized the notion that qi exists as something distinct from matter, and viewed qi as arising from the properties of matter. Most of the theories of qi as a metaphor for the fundamental physical properties of the universe that we are familiar with today were systematized and promulgated in the last thousand years or so by the Neo-Confucians.

First, the Chinese did not have the concept of "matter." What they did have, and what the writer may have been referring to , is the concept of 質 zhi. Unfortunately for my now half hairless head, they barely bother to even make a drive-by stab at defining this term. Seen in context over and over again I finally felt confident enough to translate it as "materialized life breath." They seem to believe that qi can somehow be concentrated, precipitated, coagulated, inspissated... Then, like a ghost in a novel or like somebody coming out of the Startrek transporter, the stuff "materializes" in solid form somewhere. It can also go back into its "qi" phase. But nobody is very clear on how it is all supposed to happen. But I don't recall any argument about this idea. It is already in the Huai Nan Zi, and nobody argues against that idea either as far as I know.

The one idea that perhaps comes closest to that of a qi that "exists distinct from matter" would be the account that says that in the beginning there was something called "primal qi" and that it (somehow) got itself together to form things. So according to that theory, qi was first and organization (li) came afterwards.

What actually happens in Neo-Confucianism, and particularly in the philosophy of Zhu Xi, is that they have two theories going and can't decide how to get rid of one or the other. They're both too venerable I guess. Anyway, modern scholars of Neo-Confucianism such as Mou Zong-san claim adamantly that Zhu Xi was a dualist. He believed that li and qi were co-eval, and that for whatever reason li get hold of qi and shapes it into the forms that we experience in our everyday world. But modern scholars like Tang Jun-yi argue just the opposite, saying that Zhu Xi is a monist, that primal li is (like whatever is "before" the Big Bang) is outside the Universe, that it "moves" (whatever that can mean when you are talking about something with no phenomenal traits), and that in its waxing it produces cosmic Yang and then in its waning it produces cosmic Yin, and then it goes back to its waxing phase.

I will rewrite the passage I've quoted above unless somebody comes up with a citation. P0M 04:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] And a deletion

I've deleted the following passage:

By contrast to some earlier thinkers, the Neo-Confucians criticized the notion that qi exists as something distinct from matter, and viewed qi as arising from the properties of matter. Most of the theories of qi as a metaphor for the fundamental physical properties of the universe that we are familiar with today were systematized and promulgated in the last thousand years or so by the Neo-Confucians. Knowledge of the theories they espoused was eventually required by subsequent Chinese dynasties to pass their civil service examinations.

There are lots of Neo-Confucians, so there might be some basis for the above statement. However, anything that speaks of "matter" at this early time in Chinese history is anachronistic. The issue that the Neo-Confucians talked about a lot was, "What is the relationship between 理 li, and 氣 qi, and that (dragged by force into Western terminology) is a contrast between form and substance. If this article were to get into the technicalities of Neo-Confucian thought, then it would try to answer the question, "What did the Neo-Confucians claim the relationship between li and qi to be? Were they mutually aspective, did one create the other, or were they ab initio two separate orders of existence in the Universe that were brought together by some (unspecified) third factor?" The people who devote themselves professionally to the history of Chines philosophy have not been able to settle the argument of whether Zhu Xi was a monist or a dualist, so it would be difficult to discuss the matter in any article limited to 32k. The best we could do would be to find some quotations that clearly state the dilemma that the Song dynasty thinkers faced. P0M 21:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Confucianism?

The text asserts that "a traditional Neo-Confucian explanation of the principle is given in most martial art schools." There are two huge problems with that assertion:

• Most people who teach in martial arts schools have done no direct research into Neo-Confucian texts, and secondary texts will not provide them with a treatment of the "traditional Neo-Confucian explanation." The main reason that the secondary texts don't do that is due to the need to keep their explanations relatively short, and to the following consideration.

• Neo-Confucian scholars such as Zhu Xi take the idea of qi as a given. Furthermore, when they have anything to say about it they try to ground everything in the ancient texts, texts that are not necessarily even Confucian. In fact, as the materials added at the top of the article show, the "metaphysical" treatments of qi tend to be found in the Daoist texts.

The effort of the Neo-Confucians is, in general, a synthetic one. They are trying to bring together challenging non-Confucian ideas that challenge Confucianism since those ideas provide explanations for things that traditional Confucianism does not talk about and combine them with fundamental ideas from Confucius and Mencius in such a way that they can explain new things without denying the validity of what the masters of their school had to say. Anything new that they had to say about qi lay in their development of the concept of 氣質 qi zhi or "materialized qi" and their use of this new concept to explain how people could have the fundamentally good nature ascribed to all human beings by Mencius and yet be born with stubborn tendencies to do anti-social things. I have been in lots of martial arts classes taught by very good people, and I've never heard any discussion of qi that went beyond the experiential. For instance, I recall clearly one teacher explaining why a particular wrist grip could unobtrusively rob one's opponent of enough of his power to give one a tactical advantage. "It cuts off the flow of qi," was all the explanation that was needed or given.

So can anybody explain where this idea of the Neo-Confucian traditional explanation of qi comes from? Give me a citation if possible. In all the books I have on the martial arts the only place where Neo-Confucianism is mentioned are those regarding the indoctrination that samurai were subjected to in Japan. P0M 19:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

An afterthought: Could people have been thinking about Taiji quan and linking the idea in that school (and also in Aikido) that one can "link up" with the Taiji and gain its power? P0M 19:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion?

Um...The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy has an entry for ch'i ("Chinese term for ether, air, corporeal vital energy, and the "atmosphere" of a season, person, event or work."), and a definition for two words both given as chih ("Chinese term roughly corresponding to 'knowledge'"; "Chinese term often translated as 'will'"). Both of these spellings redirect here, but this entry seems to only capture the first one. Could someone who knows Chinese fix this problem? Should chih just be made a separate page, or does it already exist somewhere under some other spelling? - KSchutte 19:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Where do they redirect from? There are dozens, if not hundreds, of Chinese characters with that pronunciation. The two mentioned above are 智, knowledge, wisdom, and 志, will, or somewhat better, aspirations. Neither of those two have much to do with qi. The word that is connected with qi in the philosophy of the Neo-Confucians is 質, which is second tone. (The other two happen to be fourth tone words.) This one means something that can best, but ineloquently, be translated as "stuff."

I'll have a look around. Maybe I can fix whatever the problem is. P0M 22:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, until somebody objects to a stub I think I've fixed the problem. I've created a brief article on "chih" and a redirect from "zhi" to "chih." I guess somebody thought "chih" was close enough to "ch'i" to be the same thing... P0M 03:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)