Talk:Ralph Vaughan Williams

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Ralph Vaughan Williams is related to WikiProject Composers which has been provided as a place for editors of biographical articles of Music Composers and Songwriters to discuss common issues, discover neglected composer articles and exchange ideas. All who are interested are invited to comment and contribute.

The family tree was done in PowerPoint and I am a bit resistant now to spending more time on it. If you email me I will email back the PowerPoint.Cutler 20:40, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Religious beliefs 2 Music for Orchestra 3 Compositions Missing 4 Pronounciation of Ralph 5 Latest revision 6 For/After 7 Picture? 8 British Isles 9 Symphony numbers

[edit] Religious beliefs

Most sources write that RVW was an agnostic, although I gather his 2nd wife claims he was an 'atheist who drifted into a cheerful agnosticism.' Certainly he was not a 'militant' atheist. Anyone got a good source here - in view of RVWs ouput it's important to clear up the point I think. Linuxlad 11:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell in his Autobiography says that as Cambridge RVW was a militant atheist who loudly announced that only fools believed in God.Roger Allen 17:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music for Orchestra

Does this section listing need a slight re-organization? Why is the Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis of 1910 listed between the Symphony No.3 of 1921 and the Symphony No.4 of 1931-1943? I don't recall, but if it was reworked by RVW in the years between 1921 and 1931, shouldn't its listing then have two dates, or a date range? Otherwise shouldn't it be moved back in the chronological listing to appear between The Wasps of 1909 and Symphony No.2 of 1913?JackME 21:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC) RVW never numbered the Sea, London, Pastoral or Antartica symphonies. I think it was only at Number 8, to avoid confusion with Number 5, that he gave any of them a number.Roger Allen 18:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compositions Missing

I have noticed several compositions missing from the list - notably Norfolk Rhapsody No.1 , Prelude and Fugue In C Minor , The Voice Out of The Whirlwind and Willow-Wood. Is there any reason for this? Also can anyone provide any further information on them so they can be listed? --Leowatkins 21:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

There are many of RVW's compositions missing. Initially I interpreted this incompleteness and this Wiki entry on RVW to be only a brief overview, but maybe it should be fuller and more complete, and if so then a complete listing of RVW's works would be appropriate. Kennedy's book, the RVW society, some excellent "fan" websites, all could be sources to gather this information to this article. I notice "HODIE" and "THE FIRST NOWELL" are missing to name another two. JackME 13:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronounciation of Ralph

I once heard that pronouncing his name "rafe" is actually a North American affectation and is not the way Brits (including his wife) have historically pronounced his name. Anybody else know anything about this? 4.229.36.169 00:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not true. I heard his wife refer to him as Rafe; she also confirmed that he eventually got tired of correcting people about that and just insisted on the correct spelling of his name (i.e. Vaughan with 2 A-s), but he definitely pronounced his first name as Rafe. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latest revision

Yes, he was a conductor and organist (of sorts), BUT...I don't think it's reasonable to call him "influential" in either category. As I understand it his conducting style was rather unorthodox and not terribly efficient but he certainly could get his wishes across. (Fred Gaisberg at EMI thought his conducting was so poor that EMI would only record the 4th Symphony with the composer on the podium--given the quality of that performance this is obviously a very short-sighted view.) As for his skills on the organ bench, when he toured the US in the 1950s he was asked to play the organ at a church service and responded that he hadn't played the organ in fifty years. I believe he played as a young man as a way to be part of the musical life of the period, but he was never trained as an organist.

So I would revert this and will do so unless other compelling views come out here. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with you Wspencer11. RVW is surely noted as a composer. Any other abilities he had such as conducting and organ playing are incidental and only serve to dilute the emphasis: RVW is a noted composer. JackME 01:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For/After

FOR: a. As regards; concerning: a stickler for neatness. b. Considering the nature or usual character of: was spry for his advanced age. c. In honor of: named for her grandmother.

AFTER: With the same or close to the same name as; in honor or commemoration of: named after her mother.

(emphasis added)JackME 12:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture?

Any chance of finding a suitable photo or other picture of him? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I have found one in the commons and have added it; I hope also to have a more typical portrait type photo to add before long. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the one of him with his cat; I wonder if it's copyrighted. Adso de Fimnu 01:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Isles

I don't want to get into nationalist arguments here (I'll leave that to the actual British Isles page), but this sentence makes no sense to me:

"Simultaneously the music is patriotic of the British Isles"

You can't be patriotic of a purely geographical entity that comprises two separate modern nations (UK and Republic of Ireland). It would be somewhat like being patriotic of North America, or patriotic of the Iberian peninsula. What was the author trying to say here?

I'm pretty sure Vaughan Williams' patriotism was for England, exclusively. Hence pieces such as the "English Folk Song Suite" and "Norfolk Rhapsody No.1". I think it would be potentially confusing to call his style 'patriotic' without stating what that patriotism was for. Surely you agree? --Leowatkins 23:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Leo. Yes, I agree. I'm not familiar with all his work, but all the folk-music arrangements and variations of his that I've heard have been English. On the other hand, an earlier part of the article says: "In essence, however, this is characteristically English (and British) music". Nonetheless, no examples other than English folk music are provided in the article, and the emphasis is firmly on the English character of his work.

I also prefer your construction "patriotic for" rather than the original "patriotic of"

So I'll change the sentence to:

"Simultaneously the music is patriotic for England ..."213.131.238.25Dermot

Yes i quite agree, that's probably the best way to express it. --Leowatkins 12:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symphony numbers

RVW himself gave his early symphonies either titles ( A Pastoral Symphony etc) or Key signatures (Symphony in E Minor). It was only with the Symphony No. 9- which shared the key of E minor with what then became the Symphony No. 6- that he numbered any symphony. I don't think he ever authorised giving numbers to the Sea, London or Pastoral Symphonies or the Sinfonia Antartica. I'll check up, but I've been ill, so no guarantee of speed in doing so.