Talk:Richard Amerike

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Contents 1 Conjecture 2 Alfred Hudd 3 Coat of arms etc 4 Waldseemüller & Vespucci query

[edit] Conjecture

Very little of this article is about Richard Amerike, and is more about the discovery and early exploration of America. -- Zoe

Actually about a controversial, possible discovery of AMerica without ever mentioning that it is not the accepted view. Rmhermen 14:14 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)

The statement "Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage calls all pre-Cabot tales unproven including the existance of any fishing villages of any name on Newfoundland." is rather an over-statment when the following canbe found on the said "Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage" website [1]

"While it has been difficult to pinpoint the exact time frame of these North Atlantic probes, evidence that they were indeed occurring by the 1490's is found in a report sent by Pedro de Ayala, a Spanish envoy located in London. The year after Cabot's successful transatlantic voyage he wrote Ferdinand and Isabella stating that for the previous seven years the Bristolians had been equipping caravels to look for the islands of Brasile and the Seven Cities. While it is not possible to ascertain whether or not these were large scale ventures and precisely what their motives might have been, Ayala's words seem to supply some proof of westward bound voyages."

Mintguy 20:55 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)

I'm not saying that "Amerike giving name to America" is wrong, but isn't it a bit to conjectural? We know that when Weldseemüller made the map he named the continent America, including parts of it abtained from Vespucci (the map, not the name). We also know that he assumed this came from Vespucci's first name. It is possible that Vespucci might have gotten the name for the continent from Richard Amerike's last name, but there is little proof as to how Vespucci is supposed to have heard of Cabot/Amerike's voyages, and more to prove that Cabot/Amerike had been there before Columbus (something which seems very plausable, and which I don't dispute in anyway). If this article is about how Amerike might have given the name to the continent, shouldn't it spend more time trying to prove this? All I can see is the part where "Copies of these maps were sent to Spain probably by John Day, where Christopher Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci would have seen them. It is possible Cabot would have written the name America (or similar) on his maps but no extant maps are available to prove this assertion." Is the research conjectural or are there findings indicating that Amerike is America's namesake, and not just one of its pre-Columbian explorers? --Gabbe 13:33 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

Too Conjectural? Yes: he is a specialist in it, but (many edits later) this one seems to be gradually taking on a reasonable shape. See also: Pre-columbian transatlantic contacts The Logic of Scientific Discovery, Ideological assumptions, and a series of other, similar ones - unless I miss my guess, all originally written by the same pen. Tannin 14:09 Dec 29, 2002 (UTC)

The original article on this page was written by Rodney Broome at my request, after I emailed him. I then wikified it and researched for more info on the web which I added including information gleaned from interviews with Peter Macdonald. Since then I took the trouble to purchase the Rodney Broome book, and I'm now less convinced by the evidence. I'm reluctant however to e-mail him to tell him this. I've also been reluctant to backtrack on some of the assertions made in this article, though in all honesty I should. Mintguy

Sounds like I missed my guess then! Tannin 23:12 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)

The bulk of this article should be posted under something like, Naming/Discovery of America; and an explanation should be given there as to why why WASPs/English nationalists wish to revise the accepted history. According to the logic of this article, America is actually a Welsh name - they'll be singing in the valleys tonight!--shtove 01:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

As to why there would be interest from Central Americans, Africans, Scandinavians, Brits etc. in revising 'accepted history' the article on the naming of America makes it pretty clear :) -- Hakluyt bean 18:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alfred Hudd

If anyone wants to do an entry on Alfred Hudd, the amateur antiquarian from Bristol who found Amerike's name connected with Cabot's in a document and made the conjectural leap, these links I found have been deleted here but might prove useful:

• http://web.ukonline.co.uk/jj.griffiths/1024/wc/caerwent/past.html Alfred Hudd, the Clifton Antiquaries, and the excavation of Roman Venta
• http://www.digitalbristol.org/members/nature/bulletin/2003_12_426.html Hudd a member of the Bristol Naturalists' Society

[edit] Coat of arms etc

Added Coat of Arms as it turned up while I was googling this subject. I'll add a picture if I find a decent one. The one I have for now is hand-drawn and it's hard to authenticate. Added Status to hopefully avoid arguments :) Also amended the Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage quote as per Mintguy above as the paraphrase in the article didn't seem to reflect what their website actually says. Also split up the opening with headlines as it seemed a bit long. Maybe it still is? -- Hakluyt bean 19:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you blazon (describe) the arms? —Tamfang 03:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a photo here: http://pages.prodigy.net/rodney.broome/piratewalk12nam.htm. Incorporated into another family's coat of arms it's the top right. Indeed there are 'stars and stripes', tho I'm sure in a fairly common heraldic arrangement. As in the article I take it to be more of a metaphorical connection.

Hakluyt bean 01:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

As near as I can make out, the quarters are

1. barry of eight gules and or;
2. paly of six or and sable azure, on a fess gules three mullets argent;
3. quarterly per fess indented argent and azure;
4. quarterly gules and or, a bend argent.

A fess on a paly field is somewhat uncommon. —Tamfang 04:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I bow to your impressive knowledge :) Here's a hand drawing from the same site: http://pages.prodigy.net/rodney.broome/ameryk3.htm. It might be interesting to know more about the design in the context of the article and perhaps heraldry in general, but in as much as Amerike is connected to the naming of America the flag question is a bit of a side-show I think. Hakluyt bean 13:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

agreed —Tamfang 17:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Waldseemüller & Vespucci query

"Martin Waldseemüller ... published a world map in 1507 using Vespucci's previously published letters. The theory suggests that Waldseemüller assumed that the "America" that Vespucci used was derived from his first name. Waldseemüller provided an explanation of this assumption as an attachment to the map."

1. I think the current majority view is that the letters were attributed to Vespucci but probably written by other(s) and including material from Vespucci's actual letters mixed with invented material - isn't it?
2. Did the letters attributed to Vespucci use "America" for the land? I didn't think they did.
3. "The theory suggests that Waldseemüller assumed ..." seems at odds with "Waldseemüller provided an explanation of this assumption". Did he make and explain an assumption or is it only theorised that he made the assumption?

Nurg 09:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)