Talk:Rinoa Heartilly

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Rinoa Heartilly has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

As others have pointed out, for one side or another, this part of the article is slightly biased. It should not be ignored or excluded, but it should show both sides of the theory, instead of just some shaky evidence for one side presented as undeniable fact.

Contents 1 Fan Reaction section 1.1 Sources 2 Antisociality 3 Rinoa Clone 4 Rinoa's existence in the KH series 5 Heroine 6 Good article nomination 7 Improving the article

[edit] Fan Reaction section

I restored the racial criticism of the game, although it appears different from numerous (and helpful) changes that were made earlier. I would appreciate if whoever made those changes could try and restore some of them - the history is too long for me to find them all.

It should be noted (as many contributors on the FF series fail to recognize) that there are many factors that Americans overlook with the Americanized versions of the games. So far, I had to correct the articles on Zell, Seifer, and now Rinoa because contributors are ignorant of the racial and cultural divides that exist between Japan and America, and which are easily overlooked (or unrecognized) by individuals without proper cultural awareness. The Asian-Caucasian dating controversey is just one of these factors. I wouldn't expect an average American to be aware of this, but at the same time, they must defer to those of us who are. --L. 8 July 2005 16:48 (UTC)

A fair point, however the text as of the current version (to me) makes little sense and is sore need of a rewrite. Of the two paragraphs dealing with this issue, in the first I can't see any point being made at all (except perhaps an obtuse hint that the fans that state many later heroines have a more generic similar look are displaying racism towards the Japanese - if this is intended its needs stating more clearly, preferably without weasel words). Incidentally, exactly how many later heroines share this look? Apart from Yuna? =) The second paragraph is quite tortuous - sentence 2 particularly. I'd have a go at writing this if I only knew what the original intention was! >Gamemaker 17:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, the "racial" comments in the article are unclear. Asian/Caucasian match-ups are "bad"? Either be specific or the section is pointless and, frankly, racist in its connotations.

I agree! If you're racist and against inter-racial match-ups, just say so instead of euphemising it in terms like "proper cultural awareness". As an Asian female, I object to this being a so-called "controversy", as this is the 21st century and it is perfectly OK for Asians and whites to date. Or "Asian-appearing" and "Caucasian-looking", however which you will. The fans that object to it are racist, and there are plenty of racist opinions out there--but it doesn't mean they belong in an encyclopedia. 75.46.146.250 06:35, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the stuff about "criticism along racial lines" should either be cited (so people can go check the sources of this criticism) or be deleted. What exactly is the criticism or controversy? That Rinoa looks Asian? Is this controversy? In my opinion, she does look Asian (actually, I am fully convinced she's half-Asian half-Caucasian, heh). And Squall definitely looks Caucasian. But, so what's the controversy there? If there was some fan segment that was concerned that advanced computer graphics would make characters identifiable as a member of a certain human race, that's fine - but it needs to be cited. Because in the article right now, no controversy is being identified, except the unexplained implication that people (labeled as "accusers" in the article right now) have something against Asian-looking characters. But I do believe this topic of racial appearance of animated characters is interesting for anyone into Japanese popular culture. Kenumay 05:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Since subsequent changes to this material were still weaselly, gramatically tortuous and badly linked, I've had a go at rewriting it. I hope it covers the relevant matters concisely and with NPOV. There's a case for whether this material needs to be there at all, but while it is, it may as well read well =) >Gamemaker 13:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks good; this needs to be done for almost every "fan reaction" or "criticism" section out there, methinks. Deckiller 14:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I think the article needs good sources to back up this entire section of the article. It should definitely be considered for deletion if there is nothing to back up these statements. Right now it seems like this part of the article is suggesting there is a problem with interracial relationships. Plus the fact that the designer who designed Rinoa said she was modeled as European also makes this section inaccurate. It seems completely one-sided in opinion. Jason Gervais 10:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Seconded, for the same reasons. There is no source provided for these supposed inter-racial problems, and in the seven years this game has been out I haven't heard a peep about this outside of Wikipedia. For controversy sections, one really has to provide sourcing on Wikipedia, as well. Source it or axe it. Peptuck 15:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, and they have to be excellent sources. My guess is this topic was probably discussed at some online Final Fantasy messageboard and I guess someone brought this up and a bunch of people started talking about it. Guesses or assumptions won't do me any good, but that's just my kick at where I think this sprung up. If I'm right, this section has no place in the article and don't even think about linking to a messageboard topic (which would be a horrible source) which may discuss this matter. Jason Gervais 19:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

After a few days I've seen no objections to this. I'm breaking out the wikichainsaw. Feel free to revert if disputed, but if so, please provide sourcing. Peptuck 07:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Now that is out of the way, what about what is currently in this section of the article? Rinoa being a "stereotypical princess". I played this game fully, but it's been years since I've played it... I don't however remember a direct mention of her being a "stereotypical princess" at all. I do think this controversy section still needs to have a good source otherwise the whole thing should be deleted. I still stand on my theory that this whole thing was picked up from some random messageboard/forum. Jason Gervais 21:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually there is a princess reference at least three times. The first time is on the Forest Owls Train when Zone tells Squall to go wake the princess--Rinoa--and the second is on Fisherman's Horizon when Quistis jokes to Squall on a way to awaken the comatose Rinoa "She might awaken from a kiss from the prince." (Almost perfect wording but not quite.) The third time this occurs is on the Ragnarok if you have Quistis in your party and she'll say "Where's the princess that changed the ever cautious Squall?" So that is why that reference is there. -Eileen-

I have added back the race issue in the last paragraph but I edited it to make it more accurate and I think it is it flows better and doesn't seem as negative. -Eileen-

The primary problem isn't accuracy; its sourcing. We need actual references to this event cited, preferably in third-party sources. Otherwise its pretty much original research. Peptuck 03:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, provide some good sources for her being labeled as a stereotypical princess (maybe a professional review from a well-known gaming site, magazine, etc. which may mention this). The thing about Rinoa being Asian seems solely as an observational opinion, but the designer of the character said she was designed as European. I don't know about you but I think the person who designed Rinoa knows her physically more than we do and if he says she is European then it is so. That's another thing which needs a source too. Jason Gervais 01:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it again for now, though of course you can feel free to revert it back if you decide it works. What we need is some good sourcing, otherwise it can easily be dismissed as original research. At least with the "princess" part I've seen quite a bit of fan dislike (even outright anger) from some people who are thoroughly disgusted by Rinoa, but I haven't seen anything at all in regards to this suppossed Asian/Caucasian pairing controversy. Is there a relevant Wikipedia article on this to even provide information that this actually exists? Peptuck 07:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I still think the part of her being a stereotypical princess should have a source though. Jason Gervais 11:37, 01 February 2007 (UTC)

Then use my quotes. They should be enough. The race issue is discussed at Sheila's site about Rinoa. -Eileen-

Link? Peptuck 07:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I assume this is some fan site. Isn't there a more professional source? Jason Gervais 09:54, 02 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I've seen it on encyclopedias somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. By the way, Sheila's site is not just another fansite because she hardly gives her personal opinion on it which is hard to believe but it is true since I've been to it. She also uses info from the FFVIII Ultimania Guide to make it more than just some opinion piece. Check it out if you don't believe me. It is in Rinoa's reference section. -Eileen-

But it is still a fan site, yes? If so, it's still not a professional source. Jason Gervais 19:56, 03 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't revert quite yet. I'll find a source. -Eileen-

[edit] Antisociality

The bit where Squall is referred to as 'antisocial' is incorrect- antisocial people like to harm others rather than avoid them. Would 'unsocial,' 'avoident,' or 'schizoid' better describe him?Eowynjedi 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Harming people is only a secondary meaning of the word. Primarily it just refers to a reluctance to mix socially with other people. >Gamemaker 13:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Aye, but as it's an official psychological disorder, it makes the statement somewhat inaccurate. Eowynjedi 21:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think being antisocial means having antisocial personality disorder; being antisocial is a trait but APD is a disorder that causes this trait. --70.25.168.90 22:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I still think it's a misuse of the word. It's like saying someone with a head cold has the flu when the flu is much more serious. Eowynjedi 22:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

'Antisocial' still exists as a word in its own right, but I'm not precious about the word being there, to be honest =) 'Unsocial' ('unsociable' is perhaps the better form) is a decent alternative. >Gamemaker 13:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and edit it then. (Little errors like that bug me.) Eowynjedi 16:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well uhh... the criminal law has sections for "antisocial behaviour", and I think the fact that Squall is being referred to as Antisocial rather than Unsocial, would fit the misunderstanding of him from others. :P Zerocannon

Squall is antisocial. He doesn't want to have any relationships with anyone. Unsocial doesn't cut it. -Eileen-

[edit] Rinoa Clone

At some point, this article mentioned how later Final Fantasy heroines have the same generic Rinoa look. I mean this is a PART of the Final Fantasy community. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with it; this is an actual issue, a pretty big criticism of Square-Enix. Google in "Rinoa clone" sometime. I think it should be included in the article.

This isn't important. It shouldn't be included. -Eileen-

[edit] Rinoa's existence in the KH series

I made an entry about Rinoa in the KH series. It is worth mentioning that she exists in that series, even though she didn't make an official appearance. NeoSeifer

We don't know that for sure. The only thing that could even hint at her existence in the KH universe is the wings, and that is shaky evidence at best. They aren't even the right shape, if you look close enough. I've edited the article to include this information, and reworded it so that it is not written as fact.

Rinoa is clearly shown in the opening hours of gameplay of Kingdom Hearts II. Therefore, the statement related to this discussion is void and shall be rectified.

It's an obvious reference to Rinoa. Why would they make Squall open up a letter with a butterfly or some random set of wings coming out of it? Come on. NeoSeifer

And the wings are shaped more like the wings on Squall's jacket, not like the ones on Rinoa's sweater. Look:

• As you already know, these are the wings on Rinoa's sweater (you may need to copy and paste this url address):

http://jomelltan.tripod.com/rinoa_wings.jpg

• Now, here is a video of Kingdom Hearts. Look at the wings on Squall's jacket (2:04-2:05):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWIZazM9r2M

• Now, for Rinoa's wings insignia during the credits of Kingdom Hearts II (2:59-3:02):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyLz97fr3Y

All in all (even though they are shaped differently), the wings on Squall's jacket are a reference to Rinoa herself. And Rinoa isn't "clearly shown in the opening hours of gameplay of Kingdom Hearts II". Making up things doesn't help. NeoSeifer

Except that she's seen in her FF8 outfit. Oh, wait. That's right: she didn't speak out her name loudly. Same as Squall, of course: that person is called ... "Leon" ... so there are obviously no connections between Squall and Kingdom Hearts either.

Be that as it may, these are all theories. While they do have a place on the page, they should not be stated as out-and-out fact. Only when Rinoa actually makes an appearance or is explicitly alluded to can this be considered factual.

She makes an appearance. Only people who didn't play the game wouldn't know this, because it's impossible or simply unnecessary to take screenshots and video captures of the **entire** game and put those on web folders.

God, you can't be that stupid. I played KH2 and I know for a fact that she isn't in it. Why do people insist that she is? And as for the person that posted below my previous post, get your facts straight. That person named "Leon" is still Squall Leonhart. If you bothered to pay attention to the story (if you even played the game, that is), you would know that Squall changed his name to "Leon", because he felt that he was weak for not protecting his home Hollow Bastion (aka Radiant Garden) from the Heartless many years ago. He didn't want be weak anymore like his "former self" (who couldn't protect his home), so he changed his name to "Leon". NeoSeifer

[edit] Heroine

I put back "the heroine" instead of "one of the heroines" since FFVIII is Squall's and her story. -Eileen-

No, it isn't just her story. Yes, she's a primary character, but she is still one of three (arguably four) heroines. I've changed it to "primary character," which should stand well as a neutral means of referencing her. Peptuck 02:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well how can Quistis and Selphie can heroines if they fade into the background after disc 2 when the game focuses on Squall and Rinoa's relationship? They are heroic but I wouldn't call them heroines because the game doesn't focus on them, Edea's possessed for alot of the game and Ellone is absent for much of it on the White SeeD ship. How about this: Keep her article as heroine and put the others as primary characters, making them important since she's more important storywise? Could we please? I don't want an edit war. I just wrote heroine because it simplier to spell and takes up less space. I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic". Plus it is not original research. -Eileen-

"I'd use simple words for the same effect, regardless of whether it is "encyclopedic"."

Unfortunately, that's not our call to make. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Articles must maintain encyclopedic language, and "heroine" is not encyclopedic as it stands. I've altered the article to use "heroine" but instead as heroine. Peptuck 23:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually that is exactly what I had in mind. We must think similarly. -Eileen-

How about we call Rinoa "the heroine" and Quistis and Selphie "a main character or heroine"? (Feel free to choose or suggest a new idea). I'm suggesting this so no one is shoved aside but Rinoa is the heroine (to emphasis her importance in the story as the female lead). Are you ok with this? I also think we should also do this with the guys too (Squall, Zell and Irvine.) -Eileen-

"Heroine" is not NPOV. It is not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. Peptuck 06:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

I've reviewed the article and it appears to pass the GA criteria. I made a few tiny edits, but overall, a job well done. Mahanga^{Talk to me} 03:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

1a: pass b: pass c: weak pass. It does not seriously violate the MOS for writing fiction, but the article could be improved in that area.

2a: pass b: pass c: pass

3a: pass b: pass

4a: pass b: pass

5: pass

6: pass (I added fair use rationale for the image)

Thanks! Might I ask what in particular should be worked on in relation to the WAF MOS? — Deckiller 03:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improving the article

I love this article. Thanks Deckiller for working so hard on it. Here is what I think should be added to the article:

1. Sheila's site about Rinoa. I normally don't like fanlistings and they usually shouldn't be in articles but I think there should be an exception for this one because it is exceptionally well done and the author doesn't use her opinions very often.

2. Rinoa's Asian looking features.

That is my opinion. -Eileen-

I can't say anything about the fansite, since I'm not familiar with it, but I don't think we should include stuff about Rinoa's asian features. Firstly, the ethnicities of the characters in FF8 are never explicitly stated anywhere, so if we say Rinoa's asian that'd be original research and opinion. Secondly, does it really matter whether Rinoa looks asian? Bhamv 03:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's true it doesn't really matter. I just noticed that she looks a little Asian, at least her eyes do. -Eileen-

I recall that the developers sincerely wanted to make her look European but somehow ended up having an Asian-looking character and calling that good enough. I hesitate to add that as of yet because I don't have a proper citation for it in front of me, though. Axem Titanium 21:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've heard that but your right still don't have a source. Are you gonna try to find one? -Eileen-