Talk:Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence
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[edit] Removed "List of Heretics" sentence
The sentence deleted was:
According to legend, The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence were placed on the Papal List of Heretics by the Pope upon his visit to San Francisco as a result of their public exorcism of the Catholic Church's dogma, hypocrisy, guilt and shame.
I've been trying to think of a way to reword this to make it encyclopedic, but I don't think there is one. It isn't just that it's untrue (there is no "List of Papal Heretics"), it is phrased in a way that implies the Catholic Church is dogmatic and hypocritical, and spreads guilt and shame.
The SPI may believe this, but I don't think anyone would claim that it is more than an opinion. If the line had said, "The SPI believe that the Catholic Church is..", then that would have at least been worded neutrally, but the fact that (1) I don't know this for sure (not being a Sister) and (2) the main point of the sentence is factually false means I can't provide an NPOV translation.
I see from the history pages that members of the SPI contribute to this article & talk page. Please feel free to clarify or discuss what should go in here, but please don't replace the sentence I have deleted until it has been rephrased neutrally and verifiably.
Reworded and corrected the innacuracy, there was another incident when the pope visited San Francisco but the heretic portion happened years earlier. Culed from extensive archival writings. Yes even the Sisters own website has the innacurate version which has been repeatedly quoted. Let's hope it gets updated.
[edit] List of Heretics ref
FredrikM: What is this "Papal List of Heretics"? Is there such a list? Where can I read it? I've tried googled it but I found only references to The Sisters.
The miracle of the internet is that internal group items that aren't password protected can be seen by anyone. There used to be a heretic list which is still believe to be in use listing artists, politicians, businesses and others including activists like the Sisters. Once it was referenced publicly the link was disabled, the list removed and, of course, its existence denied.
- 'Papal heretic' is a term used by some protestant groups to denegrate popes - i.e. heretic and papal. I can't see any reference anywhere to it being used in this context. A citation should be provided to back this claim up. 82.153.96.176 10:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sisters are not nuns
The original (copyvio) article stated that the Sisters are nuns. The Sisters website, however, makes it clear that the group began as three men dressed in habits. There is no mention at all in the history of any actual nuns joining the group. The "Sisters" refer to themselves as nuns, but they are not nuns. If the article is re-written to avoid copyvio, please keep this in mind. --SWAdair | Talk 04:52, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- "The Sisters do not claim to be Catholic nuns. But of course there are many kinds of nuns. For example Tibetan Buddhist nuns. The Sisters loosely think of themselves as gay nuns. In one respect, they serve their community and find that a similar function performed by "traditional" nuns.
- One of the things the Sisters offer comes from the Gay social revolution; that being that social roles claimed for millenia by straight white male institutions are no more credible or authoritative than those created by other members of the world community." --Anonymous
[edit] RE: The Sisters are not nuns...
From the Sisters' website (The Sisters' FAQ):
- Why do you mock nuns?
- We are not mocking nuns, we are nuns. We are very dedicated to our calling and our vows reflect our commitment to our community. Look at the work traditional nuns do. Look at the work we do. They minister to their community. We minister to our community. They raise funds for the needy. We raise funds for the needy. They are educators. We are educators. See any significant differences? The list goes on and on...
The argument could be made that the Sisters are not ordained or recognised as nuns by an "official" authority (i.e. the Catholic Church). However, as the anonymous quote above points out, we don't consider the word of the Catholic Church to carry any more authority than our own. We serve in much the same capacity as traditional nuns, we consider ourselves to be nuns and our community accepts us as nuns. See also Joshua A. Norton. --Sister Edith Myflesh, SPI 22:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I don't believe that any organisation is capable of deeming its members 'nuns'. Generally the term is first applied internally and then it's accepted by the community at large as an accurate and valid description over time. They accepted this in terms of the Catholic Church long ago. Religious scholars apply it to similar roles in other religious communities. No religious scholar that I know of applies the term to this group and society at large doesn't identify them as being 'nuns'. Until the community generally accepts the validity of such a description for members of this group, the term nun should be placed in inverted commas. You can do otherwise in your own internal literature but I don't believe that it is appropriate to do so on Wikipedia.
- GuyIncognito 08:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Me and another Wikipedian are having a discussion on Talk:Nun and possibly an edit war over whether the SPI page keeps its link on Nun. It might be of interest. I think that what's needed on the SPI page is a section neutrally describing the positions - and all the references cited. --Simon Speed 02:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
"a section neutrally describing the positions" - how about a dictionary? Would a dictinary be neutral? Wikipedia gives itself another black eye on this one. Not the part about'self-described', but the use of the word nun later in the article. Check a dictionary and look up the word 'nun'. while you're there look up irony, sarcasm, mockery, and any other host of things. Community activists who do good works are admirable, but they are not nuns! 140.184.192.117 13:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Would the Oxford English Dictionary be good enough? I used that to change the definition in Nun and added the page's first citation. In a footnote I added the fact that the OED also included two older definitions of nun a courtesan and a Pagan priestess. Unfortunatley I couldn't keep that bit in the page in spite of the gold-standard source. So much for Wikipedia is not censored see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. The nun page currently promotes a Catholic Church view of nuns and anything different just doesn't fit. --Simon Speed 20:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sister Mary Power-Hungry Bitch
I remember meeting Sister Mary Power-Hungry Bitch at the Castro Street festival in SF in the early 90s. --AStanhope 15:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
She is actually Sister Vicious Power Hungry Bitch or Sister Vicious PHB and was given that name by her fellow Sisters, she is one of the four founders of the group and is still around.
[edit] The Reverend Mother Bill(y)? Graham
I am a former member of two different singing groups in San Francisco, the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus and the Pacific Gay and Lesbian Singers, in which I sang with the original Reverend Mother of the SPI, Bill Graham. I've always found it more than a little amusing that his given name was the same as that of the prominent evangelist, and, as appropriately, the rock promoter. There are a lot of stories I could tell, but none of them are encyclopedic at all. :-( Glad to see the SPI included here, though.—Chidom talk 23:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Joke Religions Category
I've just removed the Joke religions category. This category contains beliefs like the Flying Spaghetti Monster which are not intended to be believed in and organisations like the the Landover Baptist Church which are not intended to be taken seriously but only to be mocked.
The Sisters clearly use humour, but are quite serious about their stated aims. Even their opponents do not claim that the Sisters don't stand for what they say they do. Their opponents object to the Sisters message, and even more so, how they choose to promote it. So the SPI are a humorous organisation but not a joke one.
Also they are not a religion, but an order of nuns. From the Sisters website, they can be seen to include members with a variety of religious beliefs including Christian.--Simon Speed 18:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, new-ish to wikipeda but very familiar with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence They are nuns to those in their communities they serve even though they are not tied down to one church or set of beliefs. There are quite a few FEMALE Sisters as well as it seems the gender issue has some completely bothered.
Perhaps this discussion could also enliven the concept that there are many who do consider the Sisters nuns but they simply aren't publishing encyclopedias? The Sisters are widely quoted in newpapers, books and magazines but as a much newer group (founded 1979) they are considered upstarts compared with traditional viewpoints of who and what a nun is - and i think that is the point. They challenged many concepts of gender and power and seem to have a few of those here absolutely obsessed with seeing them discredited and banished from even being thought about as nuns. Mission accomplished indeed.
My hunch is they absolutely shoul dbe a part of the article and maybe slightly discredited by calling them alternative nuns or simply drag nuns which is a term they use.
But if denial is your bag then by all means.
ps There are Sisters who are catholic and recovering Catholic as well!
Benjiboi 16:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC) benji
