Talk:Smenkhkare

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Contents 1 Transliteration 2 Hieroglyphs 3 Tutankhamun death mask 4 POV dispute: Heretic? 5 Depiction 6 I'm just flabbergasted... 7 Akhenaton's Froelich's Syndrome

[edit] Transliteration

Good call on the name transliteration. I checked on Google, and found the following counts for various variants:

• Smenkare - 100
• Smenkhare - 1030
• Smenkhkare - 1390
• Shmenkare - 2 (1 from Wikipedia)
• Shmenkhare - 1 (Wikipedia only)
• Shmenkhkare - 0

Also, most of my Egyptian books now use the Smenkhkare version too. Noel 21:30, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Hieroglyphs

Any thoughts on the hieroglyphs? This page shows two name rings.

The second seems to be

, which reads like Semerkare-Djeserkheperu to me. Gareth Hughes 14:14, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think that there is confusion about one sign only. The sign between < s > and <kA> should be <mnx> (Gardiner U22). It seems to be wrong both on the wikipedia info page (where it is written aA, giving Saakare-Djeserkheperu) and on the discussion page, where it is written <mr> and the cartouche reads "Semerkare", as Mr. Hughes correctly pointed out. So, the name Smenkhkare actually consists of signs s-mnx-kA-ra, and the whole cartouche therefore:

. 194.251.240.116 07:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC) Turo Vartiainen, University of Helsinki

[edit] Tutankhamun death mask

Is Tutankhamun's death mask probably the face of Smenkhare? The ref provided by User:Andropolis on Talk:Tutankhamun is "Treasures of Tutankhamun," The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1976. ISBN: 0-87099-156-6. I'm happy to accept it as I've read before in some relevant book or other that this was "widely accepted among Egyptologists" since probably the 60s. It does of course contradict the Smenkhare=Nefertiti theory, but then it is a minority one AFAIK. Rd232 16:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Deleted the image. This is simply incorrect.[1] deeceevoice 09:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

From a deeceevoice edit summary: "This is incorrect. It is the inner-coffin image that is thought to be that of Smenkhare -- not Tut's death mask." - so do we have the inner-coffin image? At least as an external link? Rd232 09:56, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV dispute: Heretic?

Do we really need to call Akhenaten a heretic? What one may call a heretic, others might call a reformer. I think this gets to be a POV violation, even 3500 years later... Valley2city 19:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Its stretching POV abit (in my view), however I have removed the wording as it seems 'wrong' in this context. I think he was never referred to as a heretic, just the "Great Criminal" Markh 20:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Depiction

The opinion that we only have one depiction of him is based on theory and conjecture, yet presented as fact. If Smenkhare is the same person as Ankhenaten's co-regent, a theory which holds some credence, then we have several depictions of him/her/it. Wjhonson 03:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm just flabbergasted...

I was reading Reeve's Egypt's false prophet, and he actually thinks Smenkhkare was nefertiti. Now, Reeves isn't a crackpot, so I'm quite flabbergasted that a real scholar would say somthing like that. He quoted another source I could try to get my hands on too... If anyone else said this, I'd say it shouldn't be in the article, but he is a scholar of repute, and this should probably get a nod... I just didn't want to add anything outright without running this past people here first... I would have never thought anyone of repute would say somthing like this. Thanatosimii 03:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I know this type of speculation has been around for a long time, and I seem to remember a piece in KMT where the same point was brought to light (can't find it at the moment, but will look for it). From what I have read though, it seems very likely that the skeletal remains that were found in KV55 were in fact a brother (rather than a sister or aunt) to Tutanhkamun, based on cranofacial features from X-ray analysis done in the 70s. Will make a point of adding citations that back up that assertion. Cheers! Captmondo 18:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not familiar with the analysis of mummies and how that bears upon the history of the period, but I get the feeling that most historians don't trust such analyses very far due to the fact that they all seem to have been confused by 20th and 21st dynasty priests and workmen. I think I need to get my hands on some more histories of the period, and see if they have anything to say about this. Redford's Heretic King and Aldred's Pharaoh/King of Egypt might adress such issues, although they are older than the thesis Reeves quoted. Thanatosimii 18:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The analysis of the mummies is a fascinating topic in and of itself. I was lucky this past Xmas to get a copy of Forbes' Tombs, Treasures, Mummies which is a solid (and heavy!) piece of scholarly work. For a nice summary of this issue in general (the identity of Egyptian mummies, not Smenkhare per se) take a look at the book excerpt that Forbes published on the KMT Web site called: Mummies Musical Chairs: Cases of Mistaken Identities? It does reference Smenkhare in passing (which is relevant here) and interestingly enough, also points out that the mummy attributed to Ahmose I may in fact not be him at all. Am kicking myself for not having picked up a used copy of the x-ray analysis that Forbes' mentioned in his article that I once saw in a bookstore, but I may now have to go back and track it down. Cheers! Captmondo 19:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Akhenaton's Froelich's Syndrome

It is unlikely that Akhenaton suffered Froelich's Syndrome as this causes retarded sexual development, atrophy or hypoplasia of the gonads, and sterility. We know that Akhenaton was not sterile, he had at least 6 daughters, and also children by Kiya, (probably Tutankhamon). If he suffered any deformity it is possible that it was Marfan's Syndrome, associated with artiodactly, elongation of the face, hooded eyelids, a sunken chest and bulging abdomen, the tendency to greater height, difficulty with sight and a weakened heart. Marfan's syndrome has a 50% chance of being inherited by offspring. Tutankhamon shows no evidence of it although it would appear his daughters may have suffered from the condition, but there is also evidence that images of Nefertiti were also drawn to show her with the condition. Althernatively the supposed condition of the Pharaoh was to emphasise his "god-like" character. John D. Croft 13:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the stylistic differences of Amarna-era imagery (and of Ahkenaten's appearance specifically) is more thought to be just that, rather than related to any specific disease. Indeed, there is a known change in the Amarna style from the early years to mid-point of his reign, which you can see in the respective images at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:AmarnaRelief-Nefertiti-EarlyReliefImage_BrooklynMuseum.png vs. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:AmarnaRelief-Nefertiti-LateReliefImage_BrooklynMuseum.png, the latter being softer and less angular in style. The reason for the change is style is thought to be the appointment of a new Royal Chief Sculptor, who was also likely responsible for the famous image of Nefertiti that now resides in the Egyptian Museum in Berlin.

If you wanted to add your material to the article (with proper citations, of course), I will make the effort to corroborate on the artistic side from the sources I have. Cheers! Captmondo 17:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)