Talk:Steely Dan

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Steely Dan was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: 2007-01-12

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Contents 1 Luke Wilson 2 Trivia section 3 NPOV 4 Related band 5 About Mu Major 6 Thanks 7 Katy Lied Singles 8 Userbox 9 Entertainment Weekly Article 10 Greatest Hits 11 NPOV/references 12 Musical and Lyrical Style 13 Cousin Dupree 14 Remastering scandal? 15 Trivia move 16 Eagles 17 Lisp 18 WikiProject Steely Dan 19 Failed GA 20 Trivia 21 some GA comments 22 GA 23 Origin of the band's name 24 Photos/Logo 25 Overstatements

[edit] Luke Wilson

Removed <<Unknowingly to Mr. Wilson, Steely Dan re-released their popular song, "Hey Nineteen," in 1996. >> as the comment Wilson made was clearly facetious.

[edit] Trivia section

Trivia sections on Wikipedia are considered very bad form. All imformation within this section should be dispersed to apropriate places within the article. --The_stuart 18:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• Fagen and Becker decided to name the band "Steely Dan" after a steam-powered dildo in the William Burroughs novel "Naked Lunch", a nod to the two being avid readers of 1950's "Beat" literature. Fagen once explained, "We just wanted to give the band a little more thrust than most other bands." Fagen and Becker were introduced to Burroughs by a magazine interviewer and had a cordial tête-a-tête, although Burroughs later confided that he was less impressed with their artistry than they were with his. In the excerpt of Naked Lunch in which Steely Dan is introduced to readers, the song "East St. Louis Toodle-oo" is playing.

• On 1976's "Everything You Did," a lyric says to "turn up The Eagles, the neighbors are listening." Interpreting the reference as a compliment (the actual intent was less positive), the next year the Eagles penned the lyrics, "They stab it with their steely knives but they just can't kill the beast" in their hit "Hotel California" as a nod back to Steely Dan for the free publicity. However, the "steely knives" could also be interpreted to mean hypodermic syringes stabbing "the beast" of drug addiction, or as the establishment politicians of California ("in the master's chambers, they gather for the feast") looting California but failing to win. (*they stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast").

• The University of Alabama is mentioned in the chorus of "Deacon Blues":

They've got a name for the winners in the world.

I want a name when I lose.

They call Alabama the Crimson Tide,

Call me "Deacon Blues".

The song has been part of the school marching band's repertoire ever since.

According to urban legend, the song was actually written about the Wake Forest University Demon Deacons, but in a Rolling Stone interview, Donald Fagen said "Walter and I had been working on that song at a house in Malibu. I played him that line, and he said, "You mean it's like, 'They call these cracker assholes this grandiose name like the Crimson Tide, and I'm this loser, so they call me this other grandiose name, Deacon Blues?' " And I said, "Yeah!" He said, "Cool! Let's finish it!"[1]

• The Scottish band Deacon Blue took their name from the Steely Dan song.

• The obscure and sometimes teasing Dan lyrics have given rise to sometimes considerable efforts by fans to explain the "inner meaning" of certain songs. Even the actual words used are fought over; the track "Show Biz Kids" on Countdown to Ecstasy contains a chorus line that has variously been interpreted as "Lost Wages", "Las Vegas" (a Dan favourite), "Las Wages", "Not Sweetest" and "Not Sleeping". The Dan themselves appear reluctant to make a final ruling on the matter.

• In its March 24, 2006 edition, Entertainment Weekly details a return trip to Bard College by Fagen, in which he describes a raid by sheriff's deputies. Fagen, his girlfriend, Becker, and some 50 other students were arrested. Charges were dropped, but the harassment was the origin of the grudge alluded to in "My Old School". The same article speculates that a Bard professor's wife, Rikki Ducornet, was the inspiration for "Rikki Don't Lose That Number".

• Mark Knopfler plays guitar in Steely Dan's Time Out of Mind featured on the album Gaucho.

Everything Must Go is also an album by the Manic Street Preachers and the link from this page has now over ridden the link on there page.

Personally I would think that the manics are more likely to looked at than Steely Dan

(Fix'd)

That is absolute bollocks. Steely Dan have not only sold more albums worldwide, but also have fans in America- the toughest nut to crack. The Manics haven't been big since 2000- pinners88.

Anyone who would look at the Manic Street Preachers before Steely Dan needs to get some priorities straight.

"Interestingly, it included the only other song in the entire Steely Dan oeuvre that was not written by Becker and/or Fagen—a cover of Leiber and Stoller's Ruby Baby."

What about East St. Louis Toodle-oo?

[edit] NPOV

This article needs a serious dose of NPOV (gushing, etc. common in music articles). neckro 06:20, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Pjmorse 02:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV-ectomy definitely required but I'm afraid the majority of the article would be gutted thus resulting in a cry from fans. I can take them or leave them but this article is more of a shrine than a NPOV assessment. --Wgfinley 18:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Admittedly the article is overly worshipful, but I don't think it needs gutting -- overall it's quite well-written and informative. The gushy tone can be fixed with fairly minor revisions (removing certain modifiers, etc.). I've made some such revisions, but more work needs to be done. dbtfz^talk 01:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's mostly informative but definitely too gushy. (And this is coming from a huge fan.) I've made similar revisions to tone it down. User:Kuleebaba 16 April 2006

I think you've made a great start Kuleebaba, in fact, could be most of the issues, will take a closer look when I have time. My initial reaction about gutting it may be related to the sugar overdose from the article, you've toned it down substnatially. --Wgfinley 13:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it not time to remove the NPOV box from the article? I think suitable revisions have been made, and the time has indeed arrived. User:Steveo_h 19 May 2006 07.42 (BST)

Surely this is no more gushing than many another rock legend article on wikipedia. I've removed the NPOV label. MarkThomas 08:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related band

I think the Hoops McCann Band qualifies as "related" band. See the write-up at http://www.granatino.com/sdresource/7hoops.htm

[edit] About Mu Major

Steely Dan are also known for their sense of humor. The "mu major chord" aka the "Steely Dan chord" is a case in point. This is just a joke folks! They're making fun of themselves. And you've fallen for it again, some 25 years later. LOL!

Please read either of these interviews: http://www.andymetzger.com/archive/archive3.php?id=215 http://www.granatino.com/sdresource/14zollo.htm

No. If you had read the interview you link to you would have seen that the Mu major chord is indeed a "real" chord that was popularized by the band. The only "joke" was in their act of deciding to name the chord, satirizing their ego. --Bungopolis 12:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks to the contributors to this article. You guys really got it. Ikkyu2 06:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Katy Lied Singles

To my knowledge, Bad Sneakers was never released as a single, although the producers at ABC and Becker/Fagen have said that they regretted not releasing it as a single. The word "singles" in that sentence has been changed to "songs" to reflect this.

Crotchviolence 05:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

Hey, I made a Steely Dan Userbox. To display your undying love for the Dan, add {{User:UBX/Steely Dan}} to your user page.

.

-Big Smooth 18:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entertainment Weekly Article

The March 24, 2006 article, "Back to Annandale", gives the name of the band featuring Fagen, Becker, and Chevy Chase as The Leather Canary. The wikipedia article mentions The Bad Rock Band. Were these two different bands, or is one source mistaken? Rsmoore 04:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparenly the band went by various names, including both The Leather Canary and The Bad Rock Band. See e.g. this Mojo interview (from steelydan.com). dbtfz^talk 05:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greatest Hits

For some reason I've got it in my head that one of Steely Dan's "Best Of"s is the longest pop music CD ever released, running for over 80 minutes. Is it true? Nice bit of trivia if it is. --Bonalaw 11:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV/references

This seems like a somewhat decent article, but there are tons of weasel words and super-fan type passages. Also, there's almost no references cited at all on the page. "External links" doesn't cut it. I tagged this for references. Shamrox 18:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Musical and Lyrical Style

The lyric analysis belongs in separate articles regarding the songs. Taking care of that. Fenrir2000 12:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I created stubs for "Kid Charlemagne" and "Janie Runaway" (anyone cares to wikify?), and edited out the rest of it. If somebody vetoes my editing, I recommed to restore the paragraphs in new articles concerning the songs. A modest step towards Featured Article... Fenrir2000 13:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cousin Dupree

I'd like an explanation as to why the story about the purported connection between the song Cousin Dupree and the movie You, Me and Dupree keeps getting deleted. The story is absurd, and is, more than anything, an indication of Donald and Walter's skewed sense of humor, it is well documented, and it should stay in the article. ---Charles 04:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is part of some illusion that Featured Articles should not have trivia sections. (see below) I move we revert it back in. MarkThomas 17:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remastering scandal?

The "Steely Dan remastering scandal" is not mentioned on this article, but the article on Daniel Levitin says that he descovered it. What is it, and why is it significant? The Jade Knight 03:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, if you look at the Levitin article, you will find a link to two magazine articles, one by Roger Nichols, the other by Levitin, that explain this story. Definitely seems relevant and important. I've never heard anything about this, and it makes me wonder if I need to go out and buy new cds. ---Charles 03:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

We need to incorporate the information from http://www.granatino.com/sdresource/18crime.htm -- Beardo 13:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia move

I reverted the trivia move (a) because it's a crying shame - best part of the page! and (b) more importantly because it screws up the references and leaves a load of empty references on the moved page. If we're going to move it, at least let's do the refs. MarkThomas 14:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Some editors seem to think that Featured Articles should not have trivia. I would direct them to the relevant page. Wikipedia:What is a featured article? There is nothing in there to say you can't have trivia. I propose we re-introduce the formerly excellent trivia section. MarkThomas 17:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I would ask you to take a look at User:AndyZ/Suggestions part of the Wikipedia:What is a featured article?. It is also a complaint which is partly stopping the article from reaching FA status (Wikipedia:Featured article candidates. You may also look at the music section of Wikipedia:Featured articles and see how many of the articles contain any trivia.

"Trivia by definition are trivial, and thus unencyclopediac; we need to keep Wikipedia focused on important information. Trivia sections should be removed, and any important facts should be added to the rest of the article." DrDevin 00:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, well you could make a case that some, like for example Pink Floyd are the worse for not having it, but looking at those pages, they have effectively written the trivia into the main text, so it seems a largely presentational move and I can go with that. Can you give us some time to reshape the text? Trivia and urban legend is such a key part of understanding and empathising with the Dan and it would be a shame to just lose it all. MarkThomas 12:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eagles

What evidence is there that the Eagles perceived the lyric from "Everything You Did" as a compliment? Their response "You can stab us with your steely knives, but you just can't kill the beast," seems to be clearly suggesting that Steely Dan is, uh, intending them harm. Isn't it? john k 18:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

The lyric in Hotel California is "They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast," which seems less pointed than your paraphrase. At any rate, the only way to tell what the Eagles meant would be to ask the Eagles... -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lisp

Something needs to be added about Fagen's distinguishable lisp. Weatherman90 02:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Steely Dan

Come to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Steely_Dan to sign up and visit the WikiProject-to-be's temporary page here! NauticaShades 14:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

Fails 6.c of Wikipedia:What is a good article?, images need fair use rationale. Image:Steelydan.jpeg appears to really be in question. Also fails 3.b. The trivia section is too large. --SeizureDog 12:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• 2nd GA nom - don't wikilink single years. Should use cite php/web for ref format. Rlevse 23:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

GA on hold, refs come after punctuation, not in the middle of a sentence. See 2 Dec entry too. Hold status lasts 7 days.Rlevse 19:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

GA concerns not met, GA failed 2nd time.Rlevse 00:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Since it's failed the GA can we now transfer the trivia back into the page where it belongs? Especially since someone is currently seeking to delete the separate trivia page? The trivia section is the best resource on the web for this information and it's a crying shame to deprive users of it due to some bizarre Wikicult obsession with GAness. MarkThomas 12:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

turn it into prose and it won't get messed with.Rlevse 00:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well done everyone for systematically screwing what used to be a very informative page! MarkThomas 13:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you aware this is up for GA? M3tal H3ad 05:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] some GA comments

I don't feel up to giving this article a full GA review, but I read it and I saw a few issues I think need improvement:

• "Their enigmatic, sardonically humorous and topical lyrics add to the appeal of the songs." - For me, this is a strange sentence to start a section with. The way it is written it would seem to indicate that there are some previous sentences that have been erased.
• Seems like too much use of adjectives such as deft, accomplished, adroit and respected which give the article a POV feel.
• In the cord notation, can you link to an article that would explain what the notation means?

Good luck. ike9898 18:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA

• A trivia section, remove or incorporate it into the body.
• History should be before all the other information, tell us about the band before going into style and lyrics
• The image in the infobox shouldn't be fair-use. You need an image under a CC, CC-SA, or PD license, look at some fan sites and ask for permission by sending an e-mail, then upload the picture to wikipedia commons.
• Too many external links, lyric links are copyright infringement, i see a fan site
• Alphabetize categories
• The layout has problems, three images on the right, four images on the left, one image on the right then two images on the right
• With Discography, make a list of all the albums they have made
• Time off, Everything Must Go (2003) and other sections have no references, try get at least one reference for each paragraph.
• Finally, in 2000, remove finally
• Origin of the Name this section can be removed, why? you have it in the lead and its referenced, it's also just a one sentence section.
• popular, success, influenced are overused and are POV

Note, this will never be an FA with so much Free-use images, also why is the FAC a red-link? did this try for FA or is the link broken. Once these issues are addressed it will only be the text, which i will look at. M3tal H3ad 05:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It's fair use, not free use. By the way, the things you are mentioning are FA critiques, not GA ones. Please check WP:WIAGA. NauticaShades 13:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Check criterion 2. a., 2. b. and 4 of WP:WIAGA, which are clearly GA critiques, and critiques the reviewer has made. LuciferMorgan 00:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say they were all FA critiques, just a lot of them. I'll try to fix 2a, 2b, and 4 then. NauticaShades 08:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Mmm someone tagged the image. Sorry but I'm failing this, for a 33kb article and only 17 references, its needs a lot more, try one each paragraph. Also an external link in the text (See this lyrical tribute) , too many short paragraphs (first paragraph of history is 1 sentence). Feel free to re-nominate when issues are addressed. M3tal H3ad 07:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the band's name

I like a good in-joke as much as anybody else, but it shouldn't be tucked into an encyclopedia article as if it were true. This explanation of the origin of the band's name is ridiculous:

In 1973, with the help of record company executive Jack Tafoya and a Windsor Unimax 5000, Becker and Fagen used thousands of other names in a test market research investigation. After generating more than 9,000 names, they chose #50 on the list: 'Steely Dan'...

The references presented, namely the page on steelydan.com, are clearly satirical. The author of the page, Tom Schiller, assuming it's this Tom Schiller, was a comedy writer. There was a record producer named Jack Tafoya, but there is no 'Windsor Unimax 5000' computer. Neither can I find any evidence of the existence of 'Arnold Jeevis', nor his book, nor his publisher. I'm reverting this paragraph to the usual explanation, as it was before:

Fagen and Becker named the band for a steam-powered dildo in the William Burroughs novel Naked Lunch.

I'll retain the reference to Mojo Magazine, and add one to the more serious FAQ on steelydan.com that treats the same question.The Phantom Blot 10:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos/Logo

While I myself am not going to do much work on this article, I am really impressed by the overall quality of it. If a new photo for the top of the article is going to be added, I think it should reflect what Becker & Fagen look like currently. However, I feel it's important to have a photo of the band (either the earlier incarnations, or just Becker & Fagen) in the 70's, especially with that crazy long hair Becker had.

Also, many band articles are going for the trend of having a band logo above the top photo. Suggest using either the "Can't Buy a Thrill" or "The Royal Scam" logos for this (no idea if these are copyrighted or not.)

Otherwise, keep up the great work. Not enough people my age are listening to these guys. --Insomniak 20:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overstatements

"legendary reputation for studio perfectionism."

This phrase (in the AJA section) is overly subjective, opinionated and unworthy of an encyclopedia article. If their reputation for studio perfectionism is "legendary" then perhaps it is worthy of some elaboration and a citation or two. Perhaps a more moderate phrase might be substituted. Also, AJA is NOT generally considered their best album or one of the great rock albums of the 70s, let alone of all time. Generally, among music critics, Steely Dan's first four albums are their most respected, particularly KATY LIED. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.162.0.44 (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC).