Talk:The Phenomenology of Spirit
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Someone might want to work in the body of information at:
This article, while it has some good stuff in it, also seems highly problematic to me. For one thing, it has a bunch of colloquial and rambling writing in it. More importantly, it's discussion of the Phenomenology of Mind is almost exclusively about the master-slave relationship, which in my copy is 4 pages out of a 564-page book!!!!! Anyone who read this would get a very distorted, fragmented idea of the Phenomenology, even of what the basic point of it is -- and the preface, which is one of Hegel's most important works and which sets out his whole idea of philosophy and his philosophy, is not discussed or summarized at all. We are going to have to do a lot of work on this article!!!! Jeremy J. Shapiro 08:27, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Without sources and references, I suggest taking out the entire "alternative interpretation" of the Phenomenology, since it is not really clear, its importance is not explained, and it is longer than the summary of Hegel's Phenomenology. Jeremy J. Shapiro 19:47, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I've added a table of contents. While a table of contents doesn't give the reader alot of insight into Hegel's thought, it at least alows the reader to see the breadth of material covered in the Phenomenology and how Hegel systematically organizes his treatment of them in one work. This should perhaps be "prettyed up" and worked over (with possible chapter descriptions?) --Malcolm
- Fantastic contribution! Thanks so much. I have been intending to write something about the preface, which is arguably the most important piece and now exists in two decent, commented English translations, to which I will also add references soon. Your addition of this table of contents makes me think that there might be some point in putting the table of contents of Hegel's Encyclopedia in the Hegel article, for the same reason you give here, i.e. it gives at least some view of his system as a whole. Jeremy J. Shapiro 04:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Section removed and stored here
I took out the whole following section and moved it here for storage. It has too many problems in its current form, especially lack of sources for the view represented here, and sloppy writing in the last paragraph.
<<<<Other interpreters believe the phenomenology of spirit is an argument that there are many paths through which one's consciousness can obtain freedom, which for Hegel is-self contained existence; meaning you think and act for your self or you become an educated individual living in a liberal society (one that allows your thoughts and actions to be realized). The goal of history was the development of "States", meaning mental, physical, and political, that gradually became more and more free. It is argued that Hegel simply used the master and slave relationship as an illustration of a dialectical movement that would end with the slave becoming more self-conscious and to some extent educated. The slave becomes more familiar with the natural world than the master because of the requirement of labouring, manipulating the environment, and using tools and to some extent science to better his/her life (this influenced and anticipated Marxist thinking).
This would occur despite the irony that the master was originally a freer being, with the slave's actions and consciousness being dominated by his or her desires. Hence, the contradictions of the relationship amazingly produce a positive content or result, a synthesis, a new form of consciousness, a new whole. Most importantly, it demonstrates the movement of spirit, the act of spirit becoming something greater. Another example would be Napoleon. Hegel saw Napoleon's passions and desires as advancing history. Despite Napoleon's greed and great sins he was doing the work of spirit.
The main point of this alternate view is that seeing Hegel's philosophy with any absolutes such as Hegel "believed" something specific about human nature (other than human passion and actions doing the work of Spirit), is in direct contradiction to his philosophies pragmatism. How humanity evolved was massively encompassing, almost impossibly unknowable and unpredicatable. This is why Hegel made no claim to prediciting the future but instead focused on history (His "Philosophy of history") and argued to be a culmination of present human understanding (notice the difference from Marx!). This also reveals his influence on both the philisophical schools of pragmatism and existentialism! This is also why it is so difficult to criticize Hegel, as his philosophy can be the starting point for almost any modern philisophical position including that of almost any religion! Even Marx, whose goal was to criticize Hegel's philosophy into obscurity, admits to using Hegelian thinking (perhaps inverted) as the foundation for his arguments. The only way to defeat Hegel's position for Marx, was to turn it around; hence, humanities goal is not driven by spirit and forms of consciousness but by human action (practical human activity) and the material world! The direct opposite of Hegel! Perhaps Hegel's work is not one of the most understood philosophies (particularly his phenomenology of spirit) but it is definetly one of the most influential.>>>>
Jeremy J. Shapiro 05:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Puzzles, Codes, and Secret Language
It is amusing to see J.N. Findlay's "analysis" that is appended to the Oxford University Press edition. Instead of being an analysis, it is a restatement, in clear language, of the text, which is very poorly expressed. Every paragraph in the text requires that an editor provide some sort of sense and meaning. But, then, we all know that the text's obscurity is a result of its profound depth.Lestrade 14:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
[edit] Working on the introduction
I have put in a first draft of a summary of the Introduction to the PoS (different from the Preface). I recognize it's too long and will be working on cutting it down to encyclopedic size.Aldrichio 21:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
