Talk:Tisha B'Av

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Ranking 14 August 2005/9 Av 5765 -- the day in which "[t]he primary laws of the Israeli disengagement began to go into effect on Tisha B'Av 2005[,]" as one of the calamities befalling the Jewish people -- is a desecration of the memory of those who actually did suffer and die in tragedies related to this calendar date. I note that on the main page, this quotation is ascribed to a page from adat.org but does not actually appear on that linked page. An earlier version of the Wiki page stated, even more baldly, that the "expulsion" of "Jews" from Gaza was set to begin on that date (the page has been edited and I don't remember the exact text.)

The Jewish Gaza settlers, who were settled there at Israeli government expense, arguably in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, on land that did not belong to them, are being resettled -- again at Israeli taxpayer expense -- into prime real estate within the pre-5 June 1967 armistice lines (the so-called Green Line, which a majority of Israelis consider to be the de facto boundaries of the State of Israel (minor modifications notwithstanding.) Their lives will continue much as before, speaking Hebrew, serving in the Israeli army (those who serve), voting in Israeli elections, buying their daily goods in shekels, riding Egged buses and driving on Israeli roads. (They may not be able to harass and provoke Palestinians quite as much as they did before, but they can always go to Hebron to do that if they must.) This stands in sharp contrast to the sufferings of Jews on Tisha B'av at the hands of others in years past, and as already stated, comparing the experience of the settlers to those who have suffered and died in the past desecrates the memory of the latter.

You could of stated your point without going into "politics" (which are arguably not correct).

You are incorrect. Sharon and his government avoided 9 Av as the starting point for the disengagement to avoid historical connotations. Of course the settlers are keen to be associated with 9 Av, but this is simply incorrect. JFW | T@lk 22:42, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Although I believe that the expulsion of Jews from Gaza belongs in an article about tragedies which happen to Jews, it doesn't belong in Tisha B'Av, for the one reason as JFW mentioned that it did not happen on Tisha B'Av. If it did then there would be something to talk about but it didn't. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 02:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The inclusion of the disengagement under the list of tradgedies is innappropriate given how diverse the feelings of the Jewish people are regarding this issue. It should be removed from the list but included elsewhere in the section in order to give a complete, but accurate picture. --70.41.158.148 22:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed it again. The maximum I will agree with is a mention of the fact that Sharon delayed the disengagement until after 9 Av explicitly to avoid this. JFW | T@lk 23:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The expulsion is generally accepted to have begun on the ninth of av, though the deadline to leave was on the tenth. Regardless of when the actual soldiers came in they were massed and ready to carry out the orders.

The following is from the official chabad website. http://www.chabad.org/calendar/view/day.asp?tdate=8/4/2006

More than 8,500 Jewish residents were forcefully expelled from their homes in 25 towns and settlements in the Gaza Strip (including 16 settlements in the flourishing "Gush Katif" belt) and Northern Shomron in the summer of 2005, as part of the Israeli government's ill-fated "Disengagement Plan."

Av 10 was the deadline set by the governments for all Jews to leave their homes in these areas. Two days later, tens of thousands of soldiers and police officers began the forceful removal of the thousands who refused to leave willingly. The removal of all Jewish residents from Gush Katif and the Gaza Strip was completed by Av 17, and from Northern Samaria a day later. The army completed its withdrawal from these areas on the 8th of Elul, after bulldozing all the hundreds of homes and civic buildings in the settlements. The Jewish dead were disinterred and removed from the cemeteries. Only the synagogues were left standing.

The government's hopes that the "disengagement" would open "new opportunities" in relations with the Palestinian Arabs were bitterly disappointed. No sooner had the last Israeli soldiers departed from the Gaza Strip that Arab mobs began looting, desecrating and tourching the synagogues. The vacated settlements became the staging grounds for terrorist attacks against Israel, including the unremitting rocket fire on the nearby Israeli town of Sederot and the cities and settlements of the Western Negev.

Contents 1 10 Tevet 2 9 Av will be a day of celebration 3 Desert versus wilderness 4 Amia bombing

[edit] 10 Tevet

Isn't the 10th of Tevet the date that most Haredim commemorate for the Holocaust?

Not universally. Do you have a source? JFW | T@lk 23:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 9 Av will be a day of celebration

That's from the Talmud. Its not a Chabad thing. Chabad might emphasize the notion, but its normative Jewish thought. --Meshulam 23:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Desert versus wilderness

The Hebrew "midbar" is actually translated "desert", not "wilderness". -- 11:12, August 8, 2006 147.234.2.2

I'm not aware of any recognized authority on how to translate Hebrew words. If you see a reason why "desert" is more appropriate than "wilderness" in this particular instance, then by all means, please tell us why. Oh, and by the way, which instance are you talking about anyhow? --Keeves 21:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amia bombing

The AMIA bombing in Buenos Aires (7/18/94) happened in 10 Av, not in 9 Av. see here. I also know this because my B-day is 9 Av... go figure. :)

Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 21:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)