Talk:Wa (Japan)

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Contents 1 Mandarin pronunciation of 倭 2 No Need for the Korean name table 3 Merge with Wokou? 4 Pronunciation 5 "wa" meaning docile 6 Is Wa(倭)offensive to Japanese? 7 倭 and 和 8 Korean pronunciation of 倭

[edit] Mandarin pronunciation of 倭

Regarding this edit, the ROC Kuoyü Dictionary [1] states three pronunciations, and Lin Yuntang [2] states two.

[edit] No Need for the Korean name table

Wa is an old name of Japan that appeared in a classical Chinese document. Korean pronunciation of the word has no place in this article on English Wikipedia like we don't have Japanese or French or Spanish pronunciations of the names of ancient kingdoms such as Goguryeo (Kokuri, こうくり) and Baekje (Kudara, くだら) as well as the Korean Peninsula (Chosen-hanto, ちょうせんはんとう) (which was a territory of Japan from 1910 to 1945) either. If the readers are interested to know the modern Korean pronunciation of 倭 as transcribed in English they should refer to the Korean Wikipedia. Hermeneus (talk) 01:33, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Wokou?

— Yaohua2000 02:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Wa (倭) is the name of nation. Wako (倭冦) is the name of pirates. Two totally different concepts. Hermeneus (talk) 04:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Hermeneus, the two subjects are totally different, both in content and chronologically, even if they have the "Wa" character in common. At best, a mention of "Wako" could be made in the "Wa" article. PHG 10:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I know the pronunciation bits on this page have been added and deleted in the past. The reason I've added it is as follows:

1. The word is a Chinese one. It is Chinese in origin and mainly Chinese in use.

2. The pronunciation of the word as it appeared, that is, in ancient documents, would have been "Wo".

3. However, the current article title is "Wa", probably because it was started by a Japanese author.

4. I think it would be logical to either:

(a) specify that "Wa" is the Japanese pronunciation of an essentially Chinese word, or

(b) move the article to "Wo"

5. I chose the first course of action because that would cause the least disruption. --Sumple (Talk) 04:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Wa" is the English name for Japan of the period. You could mention that the English name originaly came from Chinese language; however, as far as "Wa" is the standard English term for the name of Japan of the period and Wikipedia is an English-language encyclopaedia and not a Chinese-English dictionary, there is no point in stating whatever the word is pronounced in modern Chinese language. --222.3.71.219 05:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

how do you determine it's an english word? it's not in english dictionaries (websters or am heritage) nor in english encyclopedias (the only entries for wa are for other meanings). of course, scholars discussing japanese texts would romanize this reference to japan as wa, scholars discussing korean texts romanize it as wae, & scholars discussing chinese texts use wo. but i don't see it as a english word. Appleby 06:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Wa" is the ancient name for Japan, and is a term from the history of Japan. Why would anyone chose to transcribe it in English as pronounced in the modern Korean language? --222.3.71.219 06:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

exactly, "wa" is not a modern english word. it's an ancient term used in china, korea, & japan, with respective pronunciations. western scholars of korean history routinely romanize it as wae, since it's not an english or native japanese word. Appleby 06:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

No English-language books on Japanese history transcribe the ancient name of Japan as pronounced in modern Korean language. It's also doubtful if "western scholars of korean history" really romanize it as "wae" (unless they transcribe Edo, Heian, Yamato and the rest of old names of Japan as well as of China and other Asian nations as pronounced in modern Korean language. --222.3.71.219 07:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

english language books on korean history transcribe it as wae because it's not a japanese word. edo, heian, and yamato are japanese words, so the romanization from japanese is proper (even korean scholars writing in korean write them in japanese pronunciation). but wo/wae/wa is not a japanese word. nor an english word (like "china" "korea" "japan"), as you first claimed. so all three commonly used transcriptions should at least be mentioned in the article. i'd vote for a move to wo, to be consistent with Wokou.Appleby 07:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

What "English language books on korean history" transcribe it as "wae" anyway? If it's not a Japanese word, it's a Chinese word. There is the least point in transcribing it as pronounced in modern Korean language. --222.3.71.219 07:16, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

quick google search shows these three western sources on the first page:

• The Cambridge History of Japan: Volume 3, Medieval Japan - Google Book Search 1990 - History - 734 pages: ... Koryo sent an envoy to Japan requesting that the pirates be suppressed? ... 2/1260 records that Sung merchants and “island wae” (meaning Japanese from ...
• "The Kaya confederation developed trade largely by sea with the Chinese capital at Lo-yang and with Wae, Japan" [3]
• "in spite of an attack by Wae forces from Kyushu against Silla" [4]

Appleby 07:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Wae" as used in those texts simply shows one way to transcribe 倭 in English, not as a transciption of the modern Korean pronounciation of 倭. --222.3.71.219 07:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

i don't understand your distinction. in what language is 倭 pronounced in such a way as to be transcribed in english as "wae"? Appleby 07:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Why would the authors of the "Cambridge History of Japan," who include a Japanese scholar, choose to transcribe 倭 as pronounced in modern Korean language rather than Japanese or Chinese? If they used "Wae" for 倭, then that's just a way to transcribe 倭 that they chose. It's got nothing to do with the modern Korean language. --222.3.71.219 07:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

i don't know why, but neither do you. maybe it's because they're discussing hanja 倭 in the korean context. you can ask them or read the book, but what's not speculative is that "wae" is the korean pronunciation, as in the other citations. Appleby 08:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

None of the rest of your cited articles say that "Wae" is from the Korean pronounciation of 倭. More likely it's just an alternative way to transcribe 倭 in English. --222.3.71.219 08:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

so you're saying "wae" is a common alternative romanization from the japanese pronunciation? what romanization system used by scholars produces such a spelling? you think it's just a fantastic coincidence that a google search for "wae" & "japan" turns up these three western sources that just happen to be in korean contexts (koryo, kaya, silla) and just happen to be identical to the korean pronunciation, but is really a previously unknown japanese romanization? Appleby 08:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It is quite interesting topic which Sumple suggested. 倭 was also used by Japanese themselves, and the Old Chinese pronouciation may be as similar to "Wa", so my opinion is to keep the title as is. However, I am not sure about Old Chinese pronouciation because I just assume it from Fǎnqiè. It is welcome to show more precise information. --Corruptresearcher 08:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that "Wa" is an English word. At best, it's a transliteration of 倭 from Japanese.

It's true that the word was used by the Japanese themselves, and by the Koreans, but it was originally a Chinese word and wasn't used as much in Japan because of its pejorative character. As I understand it, it gradually morphed into the similarly pronounced 和 (correct me if I'm wrong). In any case, it is a Chinese word which was borrowed by the Japanese and Korean languages, which is why I think the Chinese pronunciation should be stressed.

Someone also argued that the word describes Japanese history, and was used by the Japanese themselves, and so should be listed under Japanese pronunciation. There is some merit to this argument, which is why I don't think the article needs to be moved. However, I still think it should be stressed that the word was originally a Chinese one, even though today it exists just as much in Japanese or Korean.

The old and middle Chinese pronunciations are interesting. Could you tell me which book you are using for Fǎnqiè? I was thinking that it may not be that reliable because ancient vowels were often different.

According to my dictionary of classical Chinese, the character 倭 has three pronunciations, each with a different meaning: as "wei1" it means "looking distant"; as "wo1" it means Japan or Japanese people; as "wo3" it means a form of hairstyle. --Sumple (Talk) 11:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the ancient pronounciations, maybe I was wrong. I found that the pronouciation of 倭 is in 「漢書地理」 written as 倭音一戈反 and in 「広韻」 written as 烏禾切. Actually I do not have books to translate Fǎnqiè but I found some information on the net and which tells that 一:iet, 戈:kuar so 一戈:uar. In the other page tells 烏禾:ua so I assumed as written on the page. However, both are written in Japanese and I am not sure they are credible. So I do not challenge you on this issue. Regarding the origin of the word, there are several theories: one says that the China decided the name of Japan as 倭 and Japanese translated it, and another says Japan introduced themselves as "Wa" and it was translated to Chinese charactor. I do not know which theory is in the mainstream but in my opinion, both sounds possible. Frankly speaking, I prefer "Wa" but I think it is also Japanese POV. So I cannot decide which is better... --Corruptresearcher 12:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstood what Sumple wanted to do. I thought you suggested to move the article but the movement is your second opinion, as I understand. So I do not have to decide which is better, do I? Regarding the ancient pronouciation, the pages I read is not so credible to cite, as mentioned above. What to do? --Corruptresearcher 12:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm originally I thought movement was better. But on thinking about it more, because the word was adopted by the Japanese, PLUS it describes Japan, it may be better off staying at "Wa", but adding the Chinese pronunciation.

On the two fanqie you posted, i think we need the pronunciation tables for ancient chinese. I'll see if I can dig one up when i go to the library, but not promises =D. --Sumple (Talk) 22:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Credible information is helpful for everyone, even if it denies my assumption. Thank you in advance. --Corruptresearcher 04:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have not read all the above, but it seems to me that "Wokou" is called that because (obviously, from the specification of nationality) it is about a Chinese perspective. This, however, is an article on Japan(ese history) and so should use the Japanese spelling, at least if that is the way the original author intended. The logic Appleby is applying could be used to justify moving, say, Nihonjinron to give it a Hanyu Pinyin title just because it is a Japanese word of Chinese origin. I looked the kanji (not hanzi) up in two exclusively Japanese dictionaries, both of whichnot only included it, but said "wa" rather than "wo", before posting. elvenscout742 22:16, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say this is an article about Japanese history? This is an ancient Chinese name for Japan, first and foremost. it's not the same as nihonjin, because that is a japanese-made expression written in kanji, whereas wo(wa) was a chinese term translated into japanese.--Sumple (Talk) 11:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's still about Japan. elvenscout742 19:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And based on their contributions, I would say the original author was not Japanese at all. Most of their edits were to China (frequently Hong Kong) related topics. I'd say the author is Hong Kongian. elvenscout742 20:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

And how does that disqualify them from writing about a term of Chinese origin?

Alright I'll try one final analogy: is Angleterre a French term or English term? Even though it is a name for England, and I'm sure many English people would use it in certain contexts (e.g. when talking to a Frenchman), this does not make it an English term. It is a French term for England. It is not an English term. --Sumple (Talk) 11:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "wa" meaning docile

from jawiki: "倭は遙か遠いところを表すとする説、倭は柔順な性格という語義もあり、当時の倭人が中国人から見て柔順に見えたのだとする説". the fact that it's not mentioned in modern Chinese dictionaries doesn't necessarily mean it's not a real theory. Mackan 03:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yet "jawiki" is not an academic source. As a compromise, I will put a cite tag on this statement. If no citations can be provided within a reasonable length of time, I will then remove it. --Sumple (Talk) 04:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree, a cite tag is appropriate until a better source than jawiki is found. But saying that you will remove it withing a reasonable lenght of time is something I don't agree with. If you're going to start remove things just because they're not sourced, anybody could remove a lot of useful information from an article. Surely, the cite tag is enough. I have no intention of looking for a source at right this moment (busy in real life), and it would seem appropriate to give other editors a chance to fill it in, without any randomly imposed time limit. Mackan 05:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Understood. Nevertheless, contentious matters added without reference should be removed if no sources are provided within a reasonable time frame, because otherwise a false statement (not saying yours is one) would stay in an article for a long long time. --Sumple (Talk) 06:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but most of the stuff on this page lacks any source at all, as do most Wikipedia articles. At least I cite something, even if it's just another Wiki. And having a false fact with a ^{[citation needed]} tag after it is to me the same as saying "this could just as well be false as true", so I think it's ok.Mackan 17:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Wa(倭)offensive to Japanese?

Wa(倭) is a Chinese term that is viewed by most Japanese people as an offensive racist term for Japan. Is it?--Yeahsoo 20:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

this question is a little different.most Japanese don't feel it offenese. but There is countries that uses it contemptuously. I doesn't write concretely but It isn't good manners.It is the one such as Jap or Nip.--Forestfarmer 21:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess the country is China, since (倭) is only used in China and Japan. I think (倭) is not contemptuous originally, but it become an offensive after Wokou in Ming, and Japan invasion in WWII.--Yeahsoo 22:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I rewrited "a country" to "countries".why Korean pronunciation is written ? are'nt you.Janpan is disliked not only china but also korea.--Forestfarmer 00:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 倭 and 和

This article should try and explain (which it does not even reference now) how 倭 became 和. 128.8.9.21 08:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Korean pronunciation of 倭

Middle Korean dictionaries of Chinese characters that use hangeul in order to indicate the Sino-Korean reading of the Chinese character followed by a Native Korean gloss of the character's meaning (also in hangeul), such as 訓蒙字會 Hunmong Jahoe, indicate that the contemporary Sino-Korean pronunciation of 倭 was 와 Wa, and that the Native Korean gloss for this word was 예 Yey. Considering the phonological history of the Chinese language and the borrowed Chinese elements in Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese, the Middle Korean reading of 와 Wa for 倭 was most likely the original one, as it corresponds regularly with the Mandarin Chinese reading, Wō, and the Sino-Japanese reading, Wa. The epenthetic palatal element (/j/ "y") on the end of the Modern Korean reading of 倭 (왜 Way > Wɛ) is not of Sinitic origin, as it does not correspond to any of the readings in Chinese or Japanese. However, a similar epenthetic palatal glide can be found in the Sino-Korean reading of various other Chinese characters, such as 腦 (뇌 noy > nö, nwe) "brain." The Sino-Korean reading of 腦 "brain" was indicated as 노 no in the Middle Korean character dictionaries, and as was the case with 倭, this Middle Korean form is the one that corresponds regularly with the Mandarin Chinese and Sino-Japanese readings, in contrast to the deviant Modern Korean reading. One potential source of the epenthetic palatal element in the modern Sino-Korean readings is the Native Korean nominative case marker, 이 -i, which was suffixed to vowel-final stems as well as consonant-final stems in Middle Korean, although it has been restricted to use after consonant-final stems in standard Modern Korean. The reason why I find the hypothesis that the palatal element at the end of words like 倭 왜 and 腦 뇌 derives from a fusion of the original Sino-Korean form with a suffixed nominative case marker to be especially likely is the fact that the Sino-Korean morphemes that have acquired this epenthetic palatal element are ones that have frequently been used as stand-alone words, i.e. they are all free morphemes that could potentially be directly suffixed with the nominative case marker, 이 -i (or even the genitive case marker, 의 -ɨj), and eventually absorb the high, front quality of the vowel of the case marker into the final vowel of the nominal stem.

So, to make a long story short, I think it should be noted that the oldest verifiable Sino-Korean pronunciation of 倭 is Wa, not Wae. It is also interesting that the "Native Korean" gloss for this character was provided as 예 Yey, which is identical to the Sino-Korean reading of 濊 (Mandarin Huì, Sino-Japanese Wai) in Modern Korean. Ebizur 12:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)