Talk:Western martial arts

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[edit] Merge suggestion

We have already been through this. The articles are quite different. HEMA is about the HISTORY, and WMA is about the RECONSTRUCTION. Drop it. Master at Arms 16:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 18th century?

don't a number of WMA organizations and individuals prefer to look to 19th century arts like Bartitsu, or even 20th century ones like Combato? Whateley23 11:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as WMA goes, not that I am aware. The introduction of the wheellock firearm was arguably the beginning of the end of the continued tradition of masters training students in hand to hand and edged weaponry combat. Perhaps the organizations to which you refer would be in the realm of MMA (Mixed martial arts) ? Master at Arms 20:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

no. MMA may use some of the later combatives (though they seem to prefer Brazilian jujitsu), but the combatives themselves are studied, as far as i can tell, as part of the larger umbrella of WMA. as i understand it, "WMA" was invented, by Pete Kautz, as a very broad term, to cover far more than just medieval combatives. coincidentally, there's a discussion on the topic going on at Swordforum, as part of this thread. Combato/Defendo, Bartitsu, and the like are unified arts in themselves, which would hardly make them "mixed". Whateley23 09:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If you can cite where Pete coined the term, then it would be most appropriate to include that in this article, as well as how the term has evolved. When this article was first introduced there was much discussion as to the timeframe that WMA should refer to. Regardless of where the term orignates, what is germane here is it's current usage. Note that if you attend the yearly (WMAW) Western Martial Arts Workshop you will not find anything much after the 17th century. In several personal email discussions I've had, the cut off point has been as I stated above. Perhaps the evolution of the term WMA is proceeding faster than some expect, but not according to this Wikipedia page Wma . Modern day combatives all have other terms that cover them and are specific to the technique. See the Martial arts article. ARMA as well as other such organizations / guilds etc. as listed in the schools section of this article are where the information for this article are derived, and none go past the 18th century. Master at Arms 20:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

however, the Western Martial Arts email list (to choose one example) considers a much wider view of WMA. my understanding has always been that the limited category the article currently describes is usually termed "HEMA", for "Historical European Martial Arts", and is considered a subset of WMA. just because that era happens to be the currently fashionable era (and the workshop you mention is run by the AEMMA, or "Association of European Medieval Martial Arts", so the limits of period they choose seem dictated more by that particular group's mandate, not a general description of all WMA) doesn't mean that the term shouldn't be applied to, say, Irish Stickfighting, La Savate, Pugilism, Bowie Knife Fighting, or any of the other martial systems which originate in the West, as opposed to martial systems which originate in the East. Whateley23 08:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

My information says that the term was derived during a discussion between Pete Kautz, Gregory Mele and a third gentelman, Dwight ?, whose last name I can not recall at the moment. Until someone can cite their works, the article stands as is. WMA is beginning to encompass a broader set of martial arts than they originally intended, but I will not speak for them. Master at Arms 19:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)