Talk:Wrestling
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[edit] New Direction
Because wrestling is such a general term, the wrestling article has become some what random and without scope. I am proposing three three sections;
- 1 An introduction to the definition of the word wrestling and origin of the word (pre-1100)
- 2 A brief synopsis\history of 'wrestling' prior to the inception of the word in Old English (greeks, Israel et al...)
- 3 Create a table containing all the current wrestling sub-groups and hyperlinks to their respective wikipedia articles (this effort should greatly sharpen the scope of the wrestling article).
Potential Wrestilng Sub-Groups
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- Freestyle Wrestling International
- Greco-Roman International
- Judo International \\ Japan
- Sambo International \\ Russia
- Grappling International
- Folk-Wrestling United States
- Catch-Wrestling Europe \ British
- Sumo Wrestling Japan
- Submission Wrestling ???
- Shooto Japan
- luta livre Brazil
- Grappling Brazil
- Yağlı güreş Ancient Mediterranean cultures
- glima Chinese
- Schwingen Switzerland
- Shuai jiao Chinese
- Böke, Khuresh Mongolian
- Pehlwani in Iran \ India
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Penciljunk 14:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wrestling in Military Training
I question whether this topic deserves it's own section in the wrestling article. Most of the information intersection of wrestling and military training should reside in the military training article. It would still be worth noting here in the 'wrestling in history' section that historically wrestling has played a part in military training. Penciljunk 15:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yes I agree. A short mention in the history section will be enough. --BorgQueen 01:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Geographical Popularity
This section(s) should be moved to it's particular folk wrestling folder. Such as Mongolian wrestling is Mongolia, collegiate wrestling in the United States and luche livre in Brazil. Penciljunk 15:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Update Status
I have done as much of significant updating as I can for now. The article has a much more narrower scope with applicable links to the sub-categories that were previous cluttering up the article. Penciljunk 00:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Introduction
Although I wrote the following line in the intro, I am really not happy with it. It needs some work.
"As Cultures strived to survive, wrestling became an intrinsic part of many cultures as a practical form of self-defense and military training." Penciljunk 01:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] History
The article provides brief mention of some well-known accounts from ancient history. What about accounts from later periods -- medieval, early modern, and so on? To keep this introduction manageable in size, one possibility would be to use this page as a starting place, and then link to whole new pages entitled, for example, "Wrestling in the Ancient World," "Wrestling in the Medieval World," and so on. Joseph Svinth 08:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- First, I want to commend you on the time and work you put into the article; the content and grammer contributions were substantial.
- (POV warning) - I believe the inclusion of historical accounts of 'wrestling' after the word 'wrestling' was inserted into the English language (1100 AD) not necessary. Wrestling is a very difficult concept to define in wikipedia because the topic is so broad and the concept is so old. To give the article scope and direction, I believe the litmus test for the insertion of historical accounts of wrestling to be whether they occurred before or after the word 'wrestling' was acknowledged and accepted into the English Language. Historical accounts prior to 1100 AD(ish) were considered historical accounts that shaped the word 'wrestling'. Historical accounts after 1100 AD(ish) were considered historical accounts derived from the word 'wrestling'; and these later examples should be covered in their respective folk wrestling article. This approach allowed the article to avoid the slippery slope of deciding which modern accounts of wrestling (which there are a lot) should or should not be included in the article. International disciplines of wrestling were exempt from this rule. Penciljunk 12:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have no trouble with your viewpoint. I was just thinking that "Wrestling," per se, should say something like "Wrestling is a combat sport done worldwide by most cultures. It is a sport usually done by two opponents in an agreed-upon area. Techniques usually feature gripping, throwing, and holding down, but usually discourage kicks, punches, and headbutts. Wrestling can be done nearly naked (Nuba fighting), nearly naked with belts (sumo), with jackets and belts (sambo and judo), or with special wrestling costumes (schwingen). In traditional society, wrestling events are often associated with Festival (e.g., Duesshera, Muharram, Carnival, harvest festivals, and equivalent events). Wrestling events have also been associated with competitions between individuals or institutions wealthy enough to afford teams of wrestlers (e.g., Mughul wrestling, Tokugawa-era sumo, and US collegiate freestyle), muscular theater (e.g., professional wrestling), nationalism (e.g., Turnvereine and the International Olympics), and military training (military combatives)." In other words, this entry should provide a dictionary-style definition (admittedly, a contentious task in itself), and then promptly move out to appropriately brief discussions of the internationally recognized types. In this scenario, Folkstyle would be reduced to linking to a separate page that provides the FILA definition, that links to all known folkstyle types listed at Wikipedia. As for History, I'd eliminate Ancient, too, and move it to another section called "Histories of Wrestling" or some such, and then, from there link to articles on Wrestling in the Ancient World, Wrestling in Medieval Guild Associations, Wrestling in Mughul India, Wrestling in the Turnvereine, or whatever. That way, if you're interested in Beach Wrestling, you won't get bogged down in tedious discussions of what distinguishes Ar Gouren from Scottish backhold, whereas if you are interested in what distinguishes Ar Gouren from Scottish backhold, then you have a starting place for further reading and research. Joseph Svinth 02:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
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- You make some valid points. I really like your first few statements prior to sentence starting with In this scenario.... There is some good general concepts that would greatly benefit the article. Maybe it is late and I am tired, but how does the sentence In this scenario,... differ from what the article looks like now? And could you also expand on getting rid of the 'ancient' concept, I may not be following your train of thought. Penciljunk 02:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
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- What I'm thinking is that "Wrestling" becomes a portal page that provides a brief (albeit potentially contentious) definition of wrestling itself, links to the major styles (e.g., the styles recognized by FILA plus professional wrestling) and then provides links to other portal pages and/or topics of related interest. Let's take an example. Assume, for the moment, that you are interested in Tudor-era sports and games, to include wrestling. Elizabethan Era gives the topic a passing mention, and that's it. And, as you correctly note, Wrestling has no place for that story. But, were there to be a separate page specifically titled "Early Modern European Wrestling" (or some catchier title), then there would be a place to mention that famous wrestling match between Kings Francis and Henry (French sources report Francis won), or at least link to Cornish wrestling (the style of Henry VIII)[1] and Ar Gouren (the style of Francis). [2]. As for what happens after "in this scenario"? Basically, nothing. The article would simply go straight from "Etymology" to "Wrestling Disciplines". Then, at the bottom, there would be a new subhead called "Wrestling History". Underneath that, a paragraph is inserted that says, for example, that wrestling has been practiced almost everywhere in the world, for about as long as anybody has been writing stories or making artwork, and then links to a currently non-existant Wikipedia page called "Wrestling History" or equivalent title. The new "Wrestling History" page in turn becomes the portal page for articles specifically about the history and traditions of wrestling, either by time period ("Early Modern", "Ancient", etc.) or by individual folkstyle. I know, most of those pages don't exist yet (and the ones that do require lots of work), but this way, at least we're acknowledging that we are aware of the problem.Joseph Svinth 07:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
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