Disputatio:Giacoma Kennedy Onassis

E Vicipaedia

This page needs to be moved: obviously Giacoma is not a Latin name, and needs to be replaced with Iacoba. But it is less obvious to me what shoudl be done with Onassis, because there is a colision of wikipedia Naming policies here:

1. People with surnames written in the Roman alphabet, but no established Latin name, should keep their surnames unchanged, in the vernacular form.
2. But Greeks normally get their names transliterated, using the same system used in antiquity.

Well, it's clear to me that Aristotle Onassis falls under category 2 (Αριστοτέλης Ωνάσης > Aristoteles Onases, though I'm not certain how his surname declines: it could be first declension, or more likely it is a genitive—as many modern Greek surnames are—and thus indeclinable), but it's less clear to me that Jacky O isn't in category 1. Honestly, were it up to me I would go with rule 2 for both Aristotle and Jackie, but this seems like something I should run past the community. So what do you think? --Iustinus 16:06, 22 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Oy, this is even thornier than I thought. Based on el:Αριστοτέλης Ωνάσης and (better yet) this page, it looks like women of the Onassis clan use Ωνάση, including one Τζάκι Κένεντι-Ωνάση. Of course in Modern Greek typically women have a different form of the surname than men, but so far I had never encountered one like this: normally the women have the genitive form of the men's surname (unless it's already genitive, as I mentioned above), but in this case the women just have the actual feminine form of the name. So as if Iacoba Kennedy Onases weren't surprising enough, we might end up with Iacoba Kennedy Onase! --Iustinus 16:20, 22 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Of course 'Iacquelina' has been known to exist ([1], [2], [3]). The surname, though, may be interesting—I think it may be an issue for a new kind of rule, namely whether names are to be inheritable across a family by default or not. I'm sure we have run across at least one case or two where two members of the same family Latinized their name differently. Αριστοτέλης Ωνάσης may be Aristoteles Onases, but do we know of Jackie using the Ωνάση name? As for the declension of Ωνάσης, the page you linked uses "του Αριστοτέλη Ωνάση". —Myces Tiberinus 22:53, 22 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Well found, but I haven't encountered Iaquelina in actual use: Jackies who go to the Conventiculum typically use Iacoba or Iacobula. And silly me, of course Ωνάση is just that weird Modern-Greek genitive, not the feminine of the name.

As for your larger question, yes that is a thorny issue. I've kind of figured that reusing the same Latinization for family members with no attested Latin name was an acceptable stopgap until contrary evidence came up (as in the case of Ioannes Dominicus Cassinus and Iacobus Cassini, which was no doubt what you had in mind), though it is debatable how many generations we should allow this to cary. For instance, it seems like a modern day decendant of a renaissance figure would still have their surname left unlatinized (barring evidence that they too Latinize their name, of course).

But that seems relatively clear cut compared to this issue. It seems safe to assume that Jackie had no qualms with Greeks refering to her as Τζάκι Ωνάση, including, presumably her husband and inlaws, but does that make it officially her name? On the other hand, it's one thing for a father and son to Latinize their surname differently, but it seems really weird for a married couple to do so. Plus, most of the world will know her as a) American, b) Onassis, (not Onasi). But... argh, this makes my head hurt. --Iustinus 00:40, 23 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I shoudl mention that Egger gives Iacoba for Jacqueline in his Lexicon Nominum Virorum et Mulierum. --Iustinus 00:41, 23 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

What's this "Kennedy" business? It used to be fairly standard for a married woman to use a forename, the initial of her maiden surname, and her current husband's surname, hence, in the usual Roman-letter spelling: Jacqueline B. Onassis. Our "Jackie O" may have done differently, wanting to honor the Kennedy name, but the first thing to verify is that she actually did, and that Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis is the name that she, not just popular culture, went by. IacobusAmor 01:03, 23 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

Oh, don't start. I don't know about the current naming policy, but in my translator's guide I specifically made allowences for the occasional exception, where everyone calls someone one thing, but they themselves used a different form (the classical example being Wolfgangus Amadeus Mozart, who really didn't go by Amadeus much in his own time). And in any case, if en: lists both of her surnames, then honestly that's good enough for me. Besides, it's a little pointless to debate who her "current" husband is when all three persons in question are dead. --Iustinus 01:11, 23 Augusti 2006 (UTC)

I have created Iacobina, because the name has been changed to this. Maybe it should be Iacoba (see the first line on this page)? Feel free to move the pages. --Rolandus 17:45, 2 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)