Benutzer:Stephele/Savoyen
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[ändere]
- "à côté de la plaque"?? - Ah! Restez poli quand même, Monsieur!! :-))) OK, all right! - You are not French enough to keep cool and polite - and you don´t want to discuss a bit more "to the point", so I will have to do what those bad, bad "Gerrrmans" (les casques à pointe) usually do to "massacre you", i.e. at least to "massacre" the nonsense you wrote. It will be some work, I am afraid, and it already took me some time to make up my mind to do it, but I just cannot leave your "aberrations" unanswered! - Starting with the central piece-of-nonsense: "don't say that Alsatian is German - it would be insulting to some people"! - Well... that's sad! But: truth hurts, sometimes!
- It is "Germanic", you say? - A "Germanic" Dialect? - You mean "Germanic" like Faröisk... or old Icelandic?? "FYI": I do speak French! - And I know the word "germanique" and its meaning helping to differentiate among things nationally and culturally "German" (deutsch). I of course learnt it after the first (natural) misunderstandings because (as in French when it comes to things described by the word "francais") there is no such differentiation about the word "deutsch" in the German language. But I must remind you of one thing: we are talking English here, not French! "Germanic" in English does not have the same connotation, the exact same meaning as "germanique" (French)! And your strange attempt to import the French meanig of this word into English makes obvious the difficulty of this way of speaking even in French: it establishes the idea that there is a division between Alsatian and German, that there is another distinction between the two than the "national" one (although even you yourself pretend that this is the reason for this differenciation), that they are separated by more than the fact that one of them is the (official) language of (among others) Germany and the other one is not, is (by name and definition) from Alsace - and thus from France. I, as a native speaker of German (Hochdeutsch), and still a person used to a number of German dialects from in- and outside Germany, or - as you prefer - "Germanic" dialects, or to say it really clearly: dialects of the German language, can tell you that there is... none!! There is no linguistic division between Alsatian and the neighbouring dialects of German if they are from Germany or Switzerland or France (Moselle) or Luxembourg (apart from the distinction of the Upper Alemanic, Lower Alemanic and Franconian groups)!! Anybody who says different does this for political (I´d suggest nationalist) reasons! And the feelings of some people - feelings that have nothing to do with the facts! - cannot keep me from saying the truth! (Anyway I prefer to think of the feelings of those Alsatians who are fed up with the lies!)
AxelW
[ändere] Loyalties
In view of the German-French historical mix, I've always wondered about the national loyalties of the Alsatians in the first half of the 20th century. I notice the present article says that after WWI, "Alsatians were considered by the French public at large as fellow Frenchmen liberated from German rule," which seems to imply that the Alsatians themselves may have had a different view. Were there pro-French and pro-German factions during the interwar period, or before WWI? If so, what socio-economic, cultural or religious patterns did they reflect? Sca 18:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is of course an essential - and very difficult - question (although for some people it seems to be quite simple, as one can get the impression reading the above!). Of course there were different factions - the whole region (two regions: Alsace and Moselle, part of Lorraine) must have been completely divided interiorly - at least until 1944. How could it not be under the given circumstances ("German-French historical mix" - or as Alsatians call it "de ditsch-frànzeesche Migges") in the times of "roaring nationalism"? There is one simple answer to this question about Alsatian´s national loyalties: you simply cannot know! The central problem of the region´s history is exactly that they were never asked! I do not say (unlike others) that I know the theoretical outcome - nor will I (I am from Germany - and I live in Strasbourg) forward any of the possible options (France - Germany - Switzerland - authonomy - independence) or any idea of my own as the best. I can only see and state that the inhabitants of the region were ("systematically") kept from deciding themselves ("have their say" ?). - And that those who wrote their history nearly all did this under the impression, the influence of narrow-minded, blinding and bloody nationalism. Going to Alsace nowadays you get the impression (you are nearly tought so) that the typical Alsatian´s feelings during that period were represented by people like the "kitsch-painter" Hansi (beautiful kitsch though) or Pierre Bucher, the founder of Strasbourg´s Alsatian Museum - fervent French nationalists - although these people were completely isolated during the twenties and thirties when following the great deception of a big part of the region´s population over the circumstances of the "retour à la France" a wave of "authonomism" shook the region - and the nation! Did this political movement mean that a part - maybe the majority? - of the people did not want to be French any more? - Who knows? As the only ones saying that "authonomism" was anti-French or even pro-German, that it was "treason", were the guys from the French political police - and a few chauvinists and Nazis from Germany trying to "attract" Alsace back to Germany! Even those among the Alsatian "authonomists" who maybe were "anti-French", were actual separatists, probably would not have said so openly most of the time! - It was just too dangerous!
- Before that, when the war was over, when the German army was dissolving in chaos and the French troops could finally leave their trenches on the Vosges mountain tops and go down to the towns and cities of the Plain, they were welcomed by "the population" as liberators. Well, "real Germans" would not have behaved like that, no? Of course? So they were feeling as "fellow Frenchmen liberated from German rule" one should think - as the French "poilus" (the "hairy" soldiers) and especially those Alsatians who had fought in the French army in order to "liberate" their homeland and bring it back to the "mother nation" had to think. But did anybody count the people in the streets? Did anybody establish a "census" about people feeling liberated - or not? I do not say, the people celebrating the "liberation" (don´t forget: they had not only been liberated from Germany but also from a crazy military dictatorship that even the Kaiser could not control any more! - And if he had it would not have been of any benefit...) were a minority, that the "schweigende Mehrheit" was staying at home. But who tried to find out about those who did - and why they did? How many were "not happy" - or at least not very happy - and how many were too afraid (because they just could not know what would come?). There was a "foreign" army that had made a vow to take back their homeland by force marching in the streets in front of their houses! When some of those saw that the French were actually treating them as fellow French they went to participate in the celebration... Some of them probably because they thought it was better for them to do so! - And they were right! Because when afterwards the French authorities classified the population alongside ancestral criteria and expelled those Alsatians they did not find French enough ("Germans") it would have been quite a problem not to have shown some patriotism at the time of the "liberation". I once heard a story f.i. about an old lady always decorating her house with the "tricolore" at that time. When in the neighbourhood people started wondering why this particular lady was so patriotic, they found out that she was threatened with expulsion.
- So the entering of the French troops meant a lot more than just the return to the nation of choice. It meant - first of all - the end of being forced to fight that nation ( - and fight at all)! Probably many Alsatians who did not absolutely want and need to be French, even some quite content with being German still were much more reluctant to make war on that country (one or the other way theirs - one of theirs) than the average German of that time was. It meant the end of that terrible war regime that (as correctly said above) saw the Alsatians more or less collectively as sympathizers with the enemy and potential traitors. It meant the end of that poverty that war had brought over the whole nation (the German - and the others too in fact). About every "grown up" Alsatian at that time must of course have been aware of the fact that "France wanted them back". France had a good "image" - a better one than Germany at that time - even (and especially) after the war and there was (at least) quite some nostalgia for it in probably most Alsatians. Getting French again at that time meant not to be with the loosers of that war but with the winners. Not to be with the culprits but with the "heroes". Not with those who would have to "pay" for the damage but with those who thought they would have the benefit. These are just very general observations but they are also part of that (unjust) German thinking that the Alsatians are just opportunists who are always on the winner´s side. - Another idea formed by dogmatic nationalism very unfair towards people who themselves did not have the right to choose anyway! I do not believe in that nationalism - and I do not believe in that myth that "all Alsatians" only thought of their "vraie patrie" - and not at all (consciously or not) of those "cool calculations". This "opportunism" only could be "morally despisable" if it meant denying "your real country". But what was their "real" country? Every side, French, Germans, all other people (or "peoples") thinking nationally, expected them to be on one side. But why would they? How could they? Many were of course. Under the "irresistable" factors and the nationalist pressure they had to decide and did. But only of those who took a political stance expressively this opinion is known. The opinion of the (of course largely unpolitical) majority is not! What was their real country? - Those who did not consciously and explicitely decide (for themselves) did "not know". - How could they not know? - And there you have got it! That is the point! The speciality! The "exception" of this "strange" region - and in fact quite some other "border-regions" that do not have an oh so clear nationality either! Alsatians - other than those who expected them to choose - had a choice, had different options - had a dilemma. They did have the (theoretical) possibility to choose - but not the right! So the only thing that can be said clearly is that the majority chose to remain... Alsatian - whether their home region became French or German. They chose to become French in order to stay Alsatian in 19 - and they chose to become German in 1871 in order to stay Alsatian... The funny thing is that since then in France you hear, that they stayed there in order to become French and that a 100,000 left the place in 71 in order to stay French! - Nothing about the million who stayed...
- So this is quite long already, and quite complicated... I suppose some of the people trying to dominate the discussion above can give you answers much more simple than this! - But I doubt they can really answer the question! Their attitude is a clear post-WWII Alsatian thing... Honestly speaking I do not see anything Alsatian in their contributions - no "geistiges Elsässertum" (René Schickele) trying to [ vermitteln] between France and Germany - only the typical complexes of nowadays Alsatians!
- I suppose (like most people) that the majority was quite happy to become French "again" (everybody under 50 never had been). But as I mentioned above France quickly managed to gross them off... TBC
- In the nationalist debate on this question people often operate(d) with certain figures. One is the number of Alsaciens-Mosellans who deserted from the German Army - and continued fighting on the French side. Nobody knows how many of those "traitor-patriots" were neither but mainly had hoped to escape from the killing when they were put in a blue uniform instead of their grey one on the French side. At least some of them did not have to fight any more it seems in order not to put them in danger to be recognized as traitors in case they were made prisoners by their former compatriots. But mostly they just were given French names and a wrong ID. Of course it is impossible to compare figures as there was no similar region at the time on the French side with people who would maybe prefer spilling their blodd for the other side... Alsatians who managed to flee the killing altogether - like René Schickele or "Jean-Hans" Arp who went to Switzerland - are not very often cited! - And they are, astonishingly (or not!!), not presented as (real) heroes today!
[ändere] Temesch?urg
Laut Einleitung ist Temeschburg ja eine
Die deutsche Bezeichnung Temeschburg resultiert aus einer in den 1920er Jahren versuchten Eindeutschung durch deutschnationale Kreise, konnte sich allerdings bei der deutschen Bevölkerung vor Ort nie durchsetzen (dennoch ist der Name Temeschburg in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland bis heute offizielle Bezeichnung). (seit hier durch eine IP
Bis X hieß es noch rel. moderat: Auf deutsch gab es auch die Bezeichnung Temeschburg - eine in den 1920er Jahren erfolgte Eindeutschung, die sich in der Umgangssprache allerdings nicht durchgesetzt hat.
Von Benutzer:Maclemo stammt die Version "Auf deutsch gibt es auch die Bezeichnung Temeschburg - eine in den 1920er Jahren erfolgte Eindeutschung, die sich in der Umgangssprache allerdings nicht durchgesetzt hat."
Laut Benutzer:Frado sogar eine "NS-Erfindung" (und dementsprechend getilgt, bis 1. Dez. 2006 - durch meine Hand)
