User talk:69.142.194.250

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[edit] Karlis Ulmanis

Ulmanis usurped power in Latvia and declared himself President. That doesn't change the fact that he was President. By stating that he wasn't, you keep violating the NPOV policy and source citation policy. See these sites:

• A good Latvian history reference [1] cites Ulmanis as President.
• The official president of the Latvian President's office [2] calls Ulmanis President.
• At [3], you can see a document showing that Ulmanis was referred to as President at that time
• At a Latvian site about history, [4], it's said that after the coup he declared himself President.
• Yet another Latvian history site, wiht a chronology, shows Ulmanis as President [5] here.

I don't know what your problem with it is, I am not myself supportive of coups, but this is a place for facts and not someone's personal interpretation of history or personal grudges against historical persons. So please see the point instead of keeping to remove references to him as the President. Solver 15:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it is you, Solver, who continually defies the "Neutral Point of View." If we are to stick to the facts, then it is clear and evident that Karlis Ulmanis was *NEVER* president of Latvia. You are attempting to perpetrate a blatant falsehood upon Wikipedia, and I call on you to desist from this coursre of action. According to the Constitution of the Republic of Latvia Chapter III, Article 36: "The President shall be elected by secret ballot with a majority of the votes of not less than fifty-one members of the Saeima." [6]

Furthermore, I call into your question the sources you cite. First and foremost, the "good Latvian history reference," is in fact culled from a travelogue, Riga In Your Pocket. The author of this travelogue is not an accredited Historian, at best this is propaganda showing Latvia in the best possible light to the tourists. Your second source, the Presidential chancellor's office is *NOT* the Saeima, who ultimatly decides who is the President. In fact, your source states "* 1936.gada 11. aprīlī pārņem Valsts un Ministru prezidenta amatu, pasludina sevi par tautas vadoni." states that he usurps the positions, but takes the title of Vadonis. That Ulmanis "serves" as both "Ministru Prezidents" and "Prezidents" is a further violation of the Latvian constitution, Chapter 3 article 38: Valsts Prezidenta amats nav savienojams ar citu amatu." Your third source, Solver, is a real winner -- you legitimize the government of Kirhensteins, BE CONSISTENT AND CALL KIRHENSTEINS A PRESIDENT TOO! Your next source indicates that Ulmanis "declared himself President," but he could just as well declare himself to be from Mars -- this does not make him a Martian, nor does it make him President of Latvia. Your last source, the timeline, links to documentation THAT ACTUALLY SHOWS the AUTHORITARIAN government SUBVERTING the constitution! This very documentation proves that Ulmanis usurped the powers of the office illegally. Solver -- you really ought to check out your sources before you use them -- they discredit your own arguments!!

Please desist from perpetrating the falsehood the Karlis Ulmanis was the President of the Republic of Latvia. He was most clearly not -- do read the Latvian constitution if you have any further doubts about this.

Auseklis

You seem to be confusing two things - whether Ulmanis was President and whether his actions were lawful. His actions were not lawful, but then we should change a lot of other things, too. For example, Latvia was never lawfully incorporated into the USSR because the same constitution demands that a referendum be held if the status of the country is to be changed, but no referendum about USSR membership ever happened in Latvia. Does that mean Latvia was never a part of USSR?

You would notice that the Wikipedia articles themselves even state that Ulmanis not simply was President but that he became so illegally. Note that Ulmanis is no way unique, there are many other leaders that became such illegally. Ayatollah Khomeini forced the Iranian Shah out of the country and became a leader after a violent revolution. As you probably well know, in 1917 the Russian Czar and family were executed, which is not really legal. There are dozens of similar historical examples.

I do find it very interesting that you disagree with what both official and historical sources say. As far as I know, every Latvian history source that mentions Ulmanis also mentions that he instigated a coup and overthrew the previous government illegally. Thus, I don't see why you have a problem with an article that mentions the fact that Ulmanis, as a Prime Minister, instigated a coup, that he overthrew the government, declared himself President and served as such.

Check out this list at the Latvian University - [7]. Ask professors of Latvian history, Prof. Stranga or Prof. Straube. I am pretty confident that they would tell you Ulmanis was a President who made himself President illegally.

Just so we don't argue forever, I'll ask for User:Peteris Cedrins, who knows about this subject, to comment. Solver 13:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Though he was most definitely a dictator, even if seen as benevolent by many, his title was (after Kviesis' departure) President. In many instances one might need to point the usurpation out, but it is quite common to refer to statesmen who take titles (by hook or by crook) by the title -- the constitution was suspended, he acted as President, and he was treated as the President (and then some) -- the head of state, formally. A foreign head of state would doubtless address him as President, and his official title was "Valsts un ministru prezidents," with "Vadonis" as the descriptor (incidentally, how Stalin was called in the Latvian press immediately prior to the occupation). It is usual to refer to him as the President. That is my divi santīmi.

P.S. See that even in Hungarian, for instance -- "Karlis Ulmanis elnököt lemondatják, és Vorosilovszkba deportálják." I would bet that more than nine out of ten sources refer to Ulmanis as President, most not out of ignorance but simply because that was his function in a formal sense. --Pēteris Cedriņš 16:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

And what's important is that not only it's usual to refer to Ulmanis as a President, but that he is acknowledged as such by Latvian historians, the Latvian President's office, Latvian history schoolbooks, and he was also acknowledged by other countries - the USSR had contacts with Ulmanis as a President. Solver 17:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

So says the plaque in Nebraska, too [grin] -- [[8]] --Pēteris Cedriņš 17:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

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