Talk:Abstract expressionism

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"Although it is true that spontaneity or of the impression of spontaneity characterized many of the abstract expressionists works, most of these paintings involved careful planning, especially since their large size demanded it. An exception might be the drip paintings of Pollock."

I believe this statement is based on a misconception about "Jack the Dripper" and his paintings, one which I shared until I read of the computer analysis related here: [1] and here:[2], which discovered fractal patterns in Pollock's works. As the Discover article says, "Pollock's drip method was as complex and exquisitely controlled as it seemed crude and haphazard. It often took him weeks to achieve the fractal layerings in his paintings..."

Just FYI.

69.151.151.52 06:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I've always thought Pollock's work displayed a high degree of structure. I'm sure there must be research out there that supports that view. Maybe I'll look next time I have a few minutes to spare. Steve James 09:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

you had Willem dekooning listed twice so I removed the second one.

HELP!

ok well im trying to go through the artists and make it so its a direct link on all of them rather then going to a breakdown of all of people named that, the one i am working on now is Paul Jenkins and i am trying to do that but whenever i try to change it it never works, i try the thing which is

Paul Jenkins (Us painter)|Paul Jenkins

and it doesnt work, i would like someone to try to get thqat to work because its not working for me :( thanks

--Er a wikipiki wiki wum 19:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

nvm i got it

--Er a wikipiki wiki wum

This page has been selected for the release version of Wikipedia and rated B-Class on the assessment scale. It is in the category Arts.

Somebody added Piet Mondriaan as an abstract expressionist, but I've removed him. It's probably true that had he worked in the US after World War II he would have been called abstract expressionist, but as he worked in Holland before World War II he never is. --Camembert

I disagree, as I find that alot of Mondrains work is abstract,as he create images of landscapes that appear to be a selection of squares.Just because he didnt produce work in New York before and after WW II , why should that effect him being an adstract expressionist??

Because then no Americans would ever know about De Stijl, that's why. (Not that many seem to anyway, but that's another matter.) Either way, the Abstract Expressionists were not the only Abstract artists ever, and Abstract art isn't necessarily always AbEx. --Bảo 20:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Gestural and Chromatic Abstraction 2 Images 3 Kandinsky an abstract expressionist? 4 References 5 Images for this article 6 Relevance of Gulgee 7 Marcel Duchamp 8 Style section

[edit] Gestural and Chromatic Abstraction

I never thought I'd ever end up saying something like this, but... why is there no mention of the AbEx subcategories chromatic abstraction and gestural abstraction? I'm not making these things up. Behold, cited definitions:

• chromatic abstraction— A kind of Abstract Expressionism that focused on the emotional resonance of color, as exemplified by the work of Barnett Newman and Mark Rothko. (pg 1095, Glossary)
• gestural abstraction— Also known as action painting. A kind of abstract painting in which the gesture, or act of painting, is seen as the subject of art. Its most renowned proponent was Jackson Pollock. (pg 1097, Glossary)
  • Fred S. Kleiner, Christin J. Mamiya (2004). Gardner's Art Through the Ages, Volume II. Wadsworth Publishing. ISBN 0534640915. 

It might be useful to point out these, or even just use them to organize the current list of artists differently, as there is a difference between the two that can be confusing to people who don't know it's there. --Bảo 20:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I've found out the problem with gestural abstraction— the Wikipedia article on it is under action painting, but gestural abstraction doesn't redirect to it. Going to fix that now. --Bảo 20:56, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

This sucks.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheKid (talk • contribs). Tyrenius 07:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

This "chromatic abstraction" sounds interchangeable with Color field painting. Please see that article. Perhaps you could create a "chromatic abstraction" page that redirects to Color field painting, and then edit the 'color field' page to include mention of "chromatic abstraction" as an alternate term. -MarylandArtLover

OK, I've done what I suggested above. I hope this is satisfactory to all concerned. MdArtLover 23:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

This article could use some more visual examples.

[edit] Kandinsky an abstract expressionist?

Well, he certainly was an abstractionist...and he formed Der Blaue Reiter in conjunction with Franz Marc and a few other German expressionists. But an exponent of ab-ex itself? Nope.

Response to the above. I wrote the bulk of the last section and said: "Abstract Expressionism has many stylistic similarities to the Russian artists of the early twentieth century such as Wassily Kandinsky." I never said he was an "abstract expressionist". Please read more carefully before you throw around your criticism. Ed

[edit] References

{1}, {2}, {3}, {4} and {5} should appear. Thank you. Protector 00:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Abstract Art and Abstract Expressionism are not the same, but is a difference of kind, not degree. Jackson Pollack, Mondrian, and Kandinsky, all mentioned in this article, as being an example of Abstract Expressionism is simply wrong. The above were pure abstraction. An article at the; "The Bulfinch Guide to Art History"; http://artchive.com/artchive/abex.html strongly suggest a distinct difference of Pure abstraction and Abstract Expression. Edvard Munch, altered images to enhance the expression of his depiction of horror in his painting, The Scream. Pure abstraction has no pointed expression motive behind their works. The practice of altering and/or adding abstract elements into a more expressive image has influenced the art of commercial images. Van Gogh's work, A Starry Night, has all the elements of abstract expressionism. Excellent expressionism reference at; http://arthistory.heindorffhus.dk/frame-Style20-Expressionism.htm G.E.Wolfe

My understanding of Abstract Expressionism is that it is a term applied to American Artists painting abstract work after World War II. Certainly there have been many painters painting abstractly before that. Modrian and Kandinsky certainly do not fit into that category. If you think Jackson Pollack is not an Abstract Expressionist, so be it. I will not argue. How Edvard Munch is the founder of Abstract Expressionism, I do not know. Ed Lynch

"How Edvard Munch is the founder of Abstract Expressionism, I do not know." I agree and corrected my view. Thanks! G.E.Wolfe

[edit] Images for this article

Why are there no images of the art at all in a description of a whole movement?

OK, I've waited for months for someone to provide an image (besides the Pollock stamp, which doesn't show a clear example of a completed work). I hope the image I added is OK with all concerned. MdArtLover 19:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevance of Gulgee

A high-handed editor (not signed in) deleted the link to Gulgee. Gulgee is directly relevant to the article's discussion of the international influence of this movement and its connection to the cold-war era projection of US cultural prestige and power. Since the person who deleted the link apparently didn't bother to look at the relevant articles in order to see the relevance and sources, I will quote here from the Elaine Hamilton article:

According to Partha Mitter in Indian Art (Oxford History of Art), Elaine Hamilton was an important influence on the young Pakistani artist Ismail Gulgee (or Guljee, as it is sometimes spelled): "Impressed by the visiting American artist Elaine Hamilton, Guljee enthusiastically plunged into action painting...." [p.214]. In fact, according to David Craven, Hamilton became something of an ambassador for abstract expressionism in South Asia: "[Abstract expressionism] was promoted as a 'universal style' in Pakistan during the 1950s by a U.S. artist named Elaine Hamilton" [p. 23].

See the Gulgee and Hamilton articles for full bibliographic information including ISBNs.

A general note to all: please be aware, before you delete something, that someone else just might know something that you don't, however highly you may think of yourself.MdArtLover 20:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marcel Duchamp

I would propose removing Marcel Duchamp from the list of AE artists. He produced virtually no original art of his own after 1923, and surely would not have subscribed to the ethos of AE, as it is a classic example of what he termed "retinal painting". He also advocated the divorce of art from subjective feeling, considering that art was an expression of idea, rather than inherently aesthetic. If no one disagrees here within 7 days, I'll knock him off the list. Steve James 15:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Categorizinging Duchamp as an abstract expressionist is ahistorical nonsense. 70.17.22.80 02:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style section

The quote "Since the subject matter was often totally abstract it became a safe strategy for artists to pursue this style. Abstract art could be seen as apolitical. Or if the art was political, the message was largely for the insiders" is highly objectionable. Abstract artists were held to just as much, if not more, scrutiny as other artists. Abstract art was not a safe political move; artists were even called on to "explain" their work as part of the anti-communist crusades. This statement should be removed. --Calegreen 01:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

If not removed, it certainly requires supporting citations. Steve James 09:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Steve but would go farther. The statement requires not only citation but more context, including citation of opposing viewpoints. Though the statement as it stands is little more than a dawb of hostile graffiti, simply removing it would be the rude and lazy option. Better to flesh it out, expand on it, balance it, sourcing everything generously. MdArtLover 16:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This assumes a relationship between style in art and trends, which is really another way of saying styles, and that which is going on in the social and political realm beyond the artist's studio. While this relationship can be a tight one, I think it is more often impossible to tie artistic changes with the goings on in the world around them. It is an interesting theory. It could have relevance. But without citations it is original research. I therefore would just suggest tagging it as a questionable fact. Bus stop 17:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have tagged it as {{Fact}}. Steve James 17:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)