Talk:Across the narrow sea

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The Eastern Continent is the general label attached to the largest landmass in the world

No it's not. I don't think anybody in the books ever uses that term. This will remain a big problem with this article—it is about a fictional something that does not have a name. I can see no way to fix it. (And I support having this article instead of having 5 different ones for the various factions on the continent.) Not much help from me, I'm afraid. Arbor 14:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thinking a bit more about what this article should be called, how about Across the Narrow Sea? I know it sounds weird, but it is the "general label" by which most of the book refers to the continent, and every reader will know what is meant. So WP naming conventions would seem to force us to use that term. (After all, it is not our business to invent or perpetuate neologisms.) Other suggestions are welcome, of course. Eastern continent does not work, since nobody in the books uses that term. Arbor 21:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I like it, and it's a broader category that would allow us to include other locations that may or may not be physically attached to the main eastern continent.Captain Crawdad 21:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it could be changed to "The Eastern Continent is the fan created term for the unnamed continent to the east of Westeros?" I don't know but all the material you ever see on the EC outside the books it is refered to as such. Plus "Across the Narrow Sea" is not a very specific title, it could mean anything. I'm going ot have to think about it. NeoFreak 22:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Fan-created terms are below notability threshold. Check WP:RS, especially the section on Popular culture and fiction: However, keep in mind that personal websites, wikis, and posts on bulletin boards, Usenet and blogs should still not be used as secondary sources. Since in the present case we have an accepted canonical term ("Across the Narrow Sea"), there is no reason to use the fandom's neologism. Sothoryos would be a different matter (even though the source is not "reliable"), since there is no canonical term that competes with it, but there simply is nothing to write about the Southern continent. Arbor

I stongly disagree as "Across the Narrow Sea" is not cannon for the continent but just that: anything across the Narrow Sea. Sothoryos is cannon (labeled on maps in the books), the same with the Jade Sea, Yi Ti, Naath, Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya all being "across the narrow sea" and cannon but not part of the landmass that this article covers. It is an inaccurate term. The fan-created (and popular) term Eastern Continent is the most accurate in a Westrosi-centirc series and, I would think, the most comprehensible and relatable term that can be applied in lieu of a cannonized label from Martin.NeoFreak 03:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

07:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The series lumps everything that is outside of Westeros into the term "Beyond the Narrow Sea", so I think that's what I think we should do as well. Everything that is outside of Westeros should go here first, regardless of what continent or landmass it's attached to. The series doesn't distinguish the "eastern continent" as an entity to itself, so why should we? Further, if we're including information on places that are not, or might not be, attached to the mainland of the "Eastern Continent", then the title is inaccurate. If we kick those locations into another article, then we're needlessly breaking up a topic into separate articles.Captain Crawdad 04:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well first that's a silly arguement, a continent is the geographical reagion countries fall under. So "if we're including information on places that are not, or might not be, attached to the mainland of the "Eastern Continent", then the title is inaccurate." Doesn't hold any water since Cuba is still part of North America, England is part of Europe and ect. I can't see why the EC would be any different Braavos, Ib and most places your thinking of would still fall under the EC. However is see how fanclut naming can be damaging to giving accuarate information that is cannon, that being said I beleive, I saw GRRM reffer to it as the Eastern Continent in the SSM at the citadel but I don't have the energy or time to sift threw it for awhile.Cybroleach 05:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If that is to be the case then the information on areas outside of the EC need to be added to this article. As it stands now only EC regions are included. I'm not opposed to an all inclusive article for non-Westeosi areas but I'm afraid it will get far to cumbersome: I'm planning on adding a main Dothraki article, a Lhazar section and expanding the Asshai, Shadow, Qarth and Summer Isles sections. I haven't decided if a seperate religions article is warranted but at the very least I'm going to significantly expand the R'hllor section. Any updating to Ghis after Dany's intrusion is going to greatly add to the info as well. With peripheral coverage on Yi Ti, the Jade Sea, Ibben, Naath and Sothoryos that's alot of info for one "catch-all". Always open to suggestions (and help!). NeoFreak 04:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the present article needs to include everything across the Narrow Sea, not only the unnamed Eastern continent. If and when this article ever exceeds 30kB we can refactor and create seperate articles for Free Cities or even Ibben, should there ever be enough information to write an encyclopaedic article about it. Arbor 08:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seas and Islands

I think the various island nations besides the Free Cities, like the Summer Islands, should get listed here as well. They should be listed in a separate section listing the various seas, with each island listed in its sea.Captain Crawdad 18:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I think it's fine how it is now, with split into Geography and Civilizations etc.Captain Crawdad 04:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asshai and the Shadow

Are we sure that Asshai is a city and not a region or nation? NeoFreak 22:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Concordance at westeros.org calls it a "port" but it references a different version of the books than I have, so I can't find the actual text. I think that would indicate that it's a city, but I changed the word "city" to the more general "port", which could be a city, nation, or whatever.Captain Crawdad 00:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe GRRM has said that Asshai is a country. The city of Asshai is the major port and presumably capital of the country. A quick search couldn't turn up the reference though (the problem with the SSM is that it is so massive). By the way, I altered the information about Quaithe in the article. Quaithe is a native of the Shadow Lands, not Asshai. She actually says this the very first time she appears, "I am Quaithe of the Shadow. I come seeking dragons." That is why she covers her face in a mask and Melisandre does not. Quaithe actually wants Dany to go to the Shadow Lands, and the only way to get to the Shadow Lands is via Asshai, which is why she asks Dany to go to Asshai first.--Werthead 18:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The character section in the back of A Clash of Kings describes Quaithe as "a shadowbinder of Asshai." Perhaps "the Shadow" could refer to Asshai as well. Maybe she's not referring to her native land, but instead her occupation as a "shadowbinder". Perhaps "the Shadow" is some specific place or concept to which she is aligned, much like Aemon could say he is a "Maester of the Citadel" despite coming from King's Landing and living in the Wall, or Melisandre saying she's "of R'hllor". I'm beginning to think that it's specifically shadowbinders who wear the masks, and not necessarily all (and only) people from the Shadow Lands. That's just speculation, however. I left the reference to the Shadow Lands sometimes being called "the Shadow" since it seems to hold true, at least in an informal way. All of this is really nebulous. Any further thoughts? -Captain Crawdad 05:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)